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Welcome to our special series of interviews with Catholic leaders and thinkers
Discussing the State of Catholicism today…
The State of Catholicism today. A conversation with Bishop Kevin Manning

As the fourth in this series of interviews with Catholic lay and religious leaders we have pleasure in presenting this extended discussion with Michael Morwood.

Michael Morwood pictured in front of the cover of his new bookAs most readers of Catholica would know Michael was a Missionaries of the Sacred Heart priest for many years principally working in the field of Adult Faith Education until Cardinal Pell decided that Michael wouldn't be allowed to discuss his ideas any further as a priest. His case caused considerable controversy at the time in Australia and elsewhere.

Interestingly, and coincidentally, during our interview we found out that February is in the fact the 10th Anniversary of his explusion. We weren't principally interested in interviewing Michael about that but the motivation for the interview is that we have become aware that his books today do generate an enormous amount of interest internationally from a diverse audience of spiritual seekers who largely seem to be the audience we are also endeavouring to reach here at Catholica: those who have become disillusioned with what "the powers that be" constantly keep trying to serve up to an increasingly disillusioned audience within the institution.

We have deliberately structured the interview as a more or less set of self-contained segments of around 10 minutes duration that might serve as useful "reflection fodder" for the readers of Catholica on each day we publish them. We will publish the further segments of the interview on this page on coming Thursdays and eventually this page will contain the entire set of reflections.

Michael's book can be ordered through his website www.morwood.org. During March-May 2008 Michael will be undertaking another of his now regular speaking tours throughout the United States, including Southern Illinois, various centres in Michigan and Wisconsin, New Jersey, Phoenix, Tuscon, Sedona, Florida, San Diego, Sacramento and San Francisco.

Introduction – why he chose the title "From Sand to Solid Ground" for his book — some general comments on the state of the Church today and why so many have become disillusioned — His thoughts 10 years on…
It seems to me that once you move away from that traditional theological mindset that we were steeped in so many dominos begin to fall. Now for some people it's "I've moved from that package, given me another package I can believe now" and we know that's not going to happen. So we're in this time of questioning and in the book I'm wanting to suggest there is solid ground on which to stand even while you let so much of that old structure go.

IF THE MEDIA CONTROLLERS ARE NOT VISIBLE ON THIS PAGE: There should be a media controller above this block of text, and in the equivalent places further down this page. If you cannot see it you most probably do not have the Java or Media Player plug ins installed on your computer. You can still hear the segments by donwloading the original audio file and listening to them separately. To do that right click on the link and save the file to your hard disk and play it manually.
LINK: Michael Morwood Interview – Segment 1 [10m14s 3.51Mb]

"The institution isn't changing but people are: [they're thinking] "institutionally you're not speaking to me any more — ritually, liturgically, you're not addressing where I am. You're not nurturing my faith, you're not ritualising my faith anymore."

The 10th Anniversay of his silencing … the challenges in his personal journey immediately following his silencing … a life saviour from Brisbane and new audience in America — the challenges the institution faces today…
The year that I was banned I think I worked in nearly every diocese in Australia — there'd probably only be five or six dioceses I did not work in with teachers and Catholic education — and my sense was that 99.9 percent of the people I was addressing were saying "Yes, this is articulating where we are". You can silence me … but I'm simply reflecting what I'm hearing and trying to outline a way of going forward!

IF NO MEDIA CONTROLLER IS VISIBLE ABOVE USE THIS LINK: Michael Morwood Interview – Segment 2 [12m39s 4.34Mb]

"Let's take the bishops in this country for example: I wonder how many of them do worthwhile reading? … a retired archbishop said to me "it's only when I'm retired that I've got time to do any reading." And I think that's part of the problem. … I think the lack of exposure to new thinking is the greatest drawback to change."

A more personal part of the conversation where Michael speaks of his experiences following the ban imposed on him and his journey to finding new ways of using his talents — Diarmuid O'Murchu — His book "Is Jesus God?"…
Today, I do not think of myself as a priest. I often get introduced as 'an Australian theologian'. I am not a theologian and I'm keen to make that distinction. I am not an academic theologian. I'm not speaking as an academic. I'm speaking as an adult faith educator. I think there's a vast difference and I think it's important.

IF NO MEDIA CONTROLLER IS VISIBLE ABOVE USE THIS LINK: Michael Morwood Interview – Segment 3 [9m34s 3.29Mb]

"The point of the book [‘Is Jesus God?’] is: we have to articulate, as adults, what our response is — so who is Jesus?"

This segment of the interview is largely concerned with a discussion on our changing understandings of the nature of Jesus and of the nature of God. Is our picture of an "elsewhere God" or an "everywhere God"?
To put it in colloquial terms, I keep saying to people, is what got Jesus of Nazareth out of bed? [pause] What got him out of bed — what was he interested in? What did he want people to believe? If we take a leaf out of Albert Nolan's book, Jesus Before Christianity, what made him 'tick'? What was he on about before the whole "theological stuff" got laid on him?

IF NO MEDIA CONTROLLER IS VISIBLE ABOVE USE THIS LINK: Michael Morwood Interview – Segment 4 [10m21s 3.55Mb]

"I think the biggest question Christians have to face today … is the question of the person 'God' — what do we mean by saying God is 'person'? It seems to me we are using a very human term — a human image; a human reality — and as nice at it is, a lovely as it is, we're putting that on this 'Mystery' we call 'God', and what we've had now for 3,000 years is the God who thinks, who reacts, who intervenes, who plots, who plans, who is male, and even amongst those I would call 'progressive Christians' who would say 'I don't believe in that (concept of) "God" anymore' when I hear them pray, uh-oh, their prayer is addressed to someone who is listening 'out there'."

The principal focus of this segment of our conversation is on liturgy and prayer — Michael argues the liturgy we experienced growing up worked well but it no longer works today — we have to go back to Jesus for answers
If I look at liturgy as it was for me as a growing Catholic, I think it's what liturgy did well. It expressed my sense of connectedness as a member of the Church — and I had a sense of appreciation of that — and it ritualised that. But now we've moved to a sense where that's too narrow.

IF NO MEDIA CONTROLLER IS VISIBLE ABOVE USE THIS LINK: Michael Morwood Interview – Segment 5 [10m06s 3.47Mb]

"We need to re-address the imbalance, I think, that so many of our prayers are addressed to an 'elsewhere God' and so many of us are still caught in the sense that God hears, God listens."

In this final segment of our conversation Michael shares his views on prayer, on the inability of the institution to respond to the spiritual needs of the community, his hopes for the future and our sense of 'Catholic' identity
If I look at liturgy as it was for me as a growing Catholic, I think it's what liturgy did well. It expressed my sense of connectedness as a member of the Church — and I had a sense of appreciation of that — and it ritualised that. But now we've moved to a sense where that's too narrow.

IF NO MEDIA CONTROLLER IS VISIBLE ABOVE USE THIS LINK: Michael Morwood Interview – Segment 6 [8m41s 2.98Mb]

"While, personally for myself, and for many people with whom I relate, there is disillusion with the institutional leadership in the Church, there is appreciation of the Catholic community in general, and Catholic scholarship, and a Catholic 'way of thinking' … but that's obviously been hijacked!"

Brian CoyneHusband and wife team, Amanda (Milly) McKenna and Brian Coyne are the publishers of Catholica Australia.

©2008 Catholica Australia. Permission granted for republication provided attribution given to original source.

[Index to this series of interviews]

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