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COMING UP ON CATHOLICA: Three great commentaries... (Main Forum)
by Brian Coyne 
, LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 00:18 (432 days ago)
TonySee suggested in the members' forum that I get myself a bit more organized regarding our commentaries and "share the workload" a bit. It's great advice particularly given that most of the time I don't start tackling the layout of the commentaries until it's almost deadline time. The reality though also is that the commentaries often only come to me a short while before they are published. In manufacturing parlance I think they call that "Just In Time Delivery". I tend to think of it as some kind of endeavour of "living in the Spirit" — not worrying about tomorrow and just paying attention to what lands on my desk (or in my inbox) each day. Today though I have received a string of wonderful commentaries that I'll spread out over the next four days.
Last week we met Brian Pitts (Beehive) in Perth and towards the end of a long conversation he suddenly broke into this lengthy story of his personal life experience. Brian has now gone to the trouble of writing that story out and I'll run it tomorrow (Tuesday). I've just written the following to Brian in response:
I was deeply moved by your story and was strongly tempted to go and grab my video camera but, from experience, know that introducing a video camera in the middle of your story would have destroyed it. (I find a wonderful synergy between that and the observation in fundamental physics that the action of observing something actually changes that which is being observed.) That sort of testimony you shared with us is so powerful though because it is coming "from the heart". I just felt very privileged being there to hear it. I'm really looking forward to doing the layout for this written version.
I do despair of where institutional Catholicism is heading under the present management. I honestly think they are turning it into a religious cult little different to any of the other religious cults in the world. My sense is that Catholicism does have a claim to some kind of "primacy" in the world but it is not the sort of "primacy" that Benedict and friends seem to imagine. I think the claim to any kind of "primacy" does not derive from some belief that we (Catholics) have all the answers, or can read God's mind better than anyone else. A claim to "primacy" has to derive from a sense that we (Catholics) are the premier or leading community of people encouraging the search for truth — NOT a claim that we already know the Truth! The very personal story you shared with us to me illustrates the different approaches. Yours was a quest for truth; what do these words actually mean — what were their origin — what were the original writers of the Jesus' story trying to convey when they were quoting from Isaiah? Benedict and friends are into some game of "social conformism" — trying to create a society of "obedient, law-abiding little citizens". Ultimately it has nothing whatsoever to do with "finding Truth" or "finding God" in anyone's life. What they're about is building some totalitarian-like society where all the sheep follow the leader passively and with docility and never have to think for themselves. Ultimately I do not believe it leads to "heaven" or however we conceptualize the end objective of this entire spiritual or life quest.
On Wednesday: Tom McMahon has just sent through a further commentary opening up more on this dualism he's been exploring of two radically different understandings of the role of the priesthood. My own sense is that despite all the theology of the last 2000 years much of humanity is still locked into an almost Old Testament view of the priest as the one who journeys up to the mountain, or up to the altar, to offer the necessary sacrifice that will appease God and bring joy, fecundity, abundant crops, good weather and happy families into our lives. In many ways we are still people thinking in an Old Testament paradigm or mindset. Perhaps history will see as one of the great characteristics of this present epoch we are moving through as a final "throwing off" of that entire theological paradigm explaining our (human) relationship to the Godhead and the Divine? People have "lost faith" in that version or conception of priesthood. Perhaps the clerical sexual abuse crisis almost "had to happen" as the catalyst to "shatter our societal illusions" that priests are "ontologically different" or themselves to be treated as some kind of gods? We're searching not only for a new theology (understanding of the Godhead and the Divine and the relationship we are called into with that Alpha and Omega) but an entirely new concept of priesthood — a priesthood more in the concept of "fellow travellers"; not men set on pedestals (by us or them), but people (men and women) with graced skills and insight into reading the "spiritual roadmaps of life". This exploration Tom McMahon is exploring with us I think is vitally important in this process of our endeavours to discern the kind of "priests" society is seeking as their guides for the life journey.
On Thursday and Friday I'm going to run a lengthy commentary Graham English has just sent in entitled "Religion and Meaning". These opening paragraphs sum up what it is all about:
It is natural for humans to seek meaning. That is one of the reasons we have religion.
Religion is about producing meanings that are crucial to people's life orientations. We want to know where we came from and what we mean, if there is life after death, if we are worthy. We want to know what to do and how what we do affects who we are. We want to know why there is evil and whether we caused it or can affect it.
![[image]](http://catholica.com.au/images/CatholicaICO_30x30.jpg)
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedCan a young person be a priest?
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 01:37 (432 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
Mulling a bit further on what I wrote earlier I've been thinking how the concept of infant baptism is probably going to be increasingly challenged. After all it was a rather late concept introduced into Christianity. I'm not sure of the full history but isn't it a concept only re-popularised by Pius X at the beginning of the 20th Century — or was that regular communion?
Wikipedia says:
History
Scholars disagree on the date when infant baptism was first practiced. Some believe that 1st-century Christians did not practice it, noting the lack of any explicit evidence of paedobaptism.[7] Others, noting the lack of any explicit evidence of exclusion of paedobaptism, believe that they did,[8] understanding biblical references to individuals "and [her] household" being baptized (Acts 16:15, Acts 16:31-33, 1 Corinthians 1:16) as well as "the promise to you and your children" (Acts 2:39)as including small children and infants.
While the earliest extra-biblical directions for baptism,[9] which occurs in the Didache (c. 100),[10] speaks to the baptism of adults, rather than young children, since it requires that the person to be baptised should fast,[11] writings of the 2nd and early 3rd century indicate that some Christians baptized infants too.[12] Irenaeus (c. 130–202) speaks not only of children but even of infants being "born again to God"[13] and three passages of Origen (185–c. 254)[14] mention infant baptism as traditional and customary.[15] Tertullian (c. 155–230) too, while advising postponement of baptism until after marriage, mentions that it was customary to baptise infants, with sponsors speaking on their behalf.[16] The Apostolic Tradition, attributed to Hippolytus of Rome (died 235), describes how to perform the ceremony of baptism; it states that children were baptised first, and if any of them could not answer for themselves, their parents or someone else from their family was to answer for them.[17]
From at least the 3rd century onward Christians baptized infants as standard practice, although some preferred to postpone baptism until late in life, so as to ensure forgiveness for all their preceding sins.[18]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_baptism
I'm having a similar thought in relation to priesthood. If a "priest" is primarily conceived of as some sort of "magician" who confects, confers or dispenses the sacraments as some kind of emissary for God it probably doesn't matter what age they are, or what life experience or lack of life experience they have had. The proverbial drover's dog or a monkey might be trained to do it. If, on the other hand, the "priest" is primarily conceived of as a person with insight or wisdom into the spiritual dimension of life then I should imagine age might be a significant factor in where a society draws its "priests" from. The people need individuals who have "experienced life" — possibly even been a bit bruised by life — they would tend to be drawn from the more senior citizens who've been around a while and learned a few lessons from life. Perhaps this fits in a bit with what Daniel Donovan was writing about on Monday in his commentary?
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
locked"A Priest among the Zulus" by Brian Pitts now online...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 13:37 (431 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
![[image]](../gc2/occ2/images/ZuluMissionary_an_325x84.gif)
Brian Pitts' fascinating commentary is now online at:
www.catholica.com.au/gc2/occ2/091_occ2_200312.php
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedIs this true?
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 15:08 (431 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
Beehive, you write:
How we have complicated things? It is our penchant for definition, precision and categorisation that has woven a web of entanglement that has trapped us.
Yes certainly the Western, scientific and theological paradigm is more complex, and I'd agree it causes some entanglement in some sectors of society, but on the bigger canvas my sense is that our increasing insights have largely served humanity well. It's a hypothetical in any case to suggest that we might jettison our paradigm and revert to one that would be better appreciated by the Zulu people or the Aramaic and Hebrew speaking people of Jesus' time. What you write certainly gives insight into the culture and language that was the crucible for Christian belief but I don't have a sense that culturally we can revert to that cultural and language paradigm. The challenge we collectively face is making the Divine insights of Jesus accessible within our paradigm and cultural envelope. I'm not even sure these days that it is "just Jesus — the historical individual". To me the historical figure is some kind of "archetypal skelton or coathanger" onto which has been draped this rich theological and spiritual insight over a couple of millenia. If the historical figure re-appeared today do you think he would understand the paradigm out of which we moderns do our thinking, and living?
The other thing I am intrigued about is your closing couple of paragraphs. This seems to be a radically different construct you are advancing to the usual Paulian one that if we cut out the resurrection our beliefs are worthless. I hope in time you can expand a bit more on the insights you are developed in this area.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedIs this true?
by Marian , Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 18:13 (431 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
Golly Gosh Brian you certainly have started a very interesting thread which is helping me to understand why I had to walk away from the Institution. It was too narrow, too confining for me. God was locked into the Tabernacle and could only be accessed by someone who was ontologically changed, male, celibate and with the key.
I can't believe I'm saying this but at last I feel free to follow Yeshua of Nazareth in the margins where I belong. Paradoxically, because of the training I received as a Reader/RCIA Catechist, I can now think as an adult and behave like an adult in the faith and that thinking has led to my decision to stay on the margins.
Marian
who is hoping for a new way to be church
lockedIs this true?
by Helen , The other side of Australia, Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 18:29 (431 days ago) @ Marian
Absolutley agree - this article is most interesting and mind expanding.
Helen
Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ
lockedIs this true?
by Beehive , Brigadoon West Australia, Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 20:36 (431 days ago) @ Marian
I can't believe I'm saying this but at last I feel free to follow Yeshua of Nazareth in the margins where I belong.>
Marian
Thanks Marian. This last sentence is really all that matters ."Come follow me" was his invitation to his disciples. They ended up in strange places.
Beehive
lockedIs this true?
by Beehive , Brigadoon West Australia, Wednesday, March 21, 2012, 00:48 (431 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
Beehive, you write: How we have complicated things? It is our penchant for definition, precision and categorisation that has woven a web of entanglement that has trapped us.
Brian you write: "Yes certainly the Western, scientific and theological paradigm is more complex, and I'd agree it causes some entanglement in some sectors of society, but on the bigger canvas my sense is that our increasing insights have largely served humanity well."
Beehive: I applaud the advancement achieved of our Western scientific paradigm. It proceeds from hypothesis to experiment which tests its validity. Until that is achieved it remains a hypothesis. The Western theological paradigm however, has no validity test; no objective measure outside itself. A sample of the woven web of theological web of entanglement is:
Brian you write. "The challenge we collectively face is making the Divine insights of Jesus accessible within our paradigm and cultural envelope. I'm not even sure these days that it is "just Jesus — the historical individual". To me the historical figure is some kind of "archetypal skelton or coathanger" onto which has been draped this rich theological and spiritual insight over a couple of millenia. If the historical figure re-appeared today do you think he would understand the paradigm out of which we moderns do our thinking, and living?"
Beehive: What does this mean? How much of this is real? What is its basis? Where is the proof of its validity? Divine insights of Jesus? Historical figure an archetypal skeleton? Rich theological and spiritual insight? All I can say is that if the historical Jesus re-appeared he would not have a clue what this is supposed to mean. I think he'd have a good laugh. This precisely is the kind of entanglement I was referring to.
Brian you write: "What you write certainly gives insight into the culture and language that was the crucible for Christian belief but I don't have a sense that culturally we can revert to that cultural and language paradigm."
Beehive: We are forever having to tune into the language and culture of a speaker. Be it a three year old, a politician, a physicist, or IT boffin. This is basically all I am trying to say. A language is circumscribed by its inherent limitations. We extrapolate it's message at our peril.
Brian you write: " The other thing I am intrigued about is your closing couple of paragraphs. This seems to be a radically different construct you are advancing to the usual Paulian one that if we cut out the resurrection our beliefs are worthless. I hope in time you can expand a bit more on the insights you are developed in this area."
Beehive : Yes this is a construct initiated and developed from a study of Old Testament prophecies that appear in single scrolls written by individuals in different places and periods about the promised "Anointed" and "Servant". They predate the New Testament and Paul by around 500 years. They look forward to some unknown character(s), and each finds its fulfilment in Yeshua. This process in no way nullifies the usual Pauline construct you mention. Paul's writing is in fact the first to bear witness to this fulfilment. The Gospels particularly the crucifixion narratives complete the picture. I am aware of the popular criticism this generates.
I will be happy to share this at some later date but let's get through this one first.
locked"A Priest among the Zulus" by Brian Pitts now online...
I decided to investigate this messiah thing for myself, from scratch, without any biblical commentators or theologians trying to hand me their answers. I had to find it myself like a forensic scientist. I had to be critical and objective. Every tool I needed, I would get. I didn't know where it was going to lead, but I was prepared to accept whatever the outcome. My greatest asset was my Zulu understanding of the world.
Brian, thank you for your story, especially your observations about language.
Also, what a great insight and a great attitude to bring to a spiritual search. Your story says so much to me about the way contact with other languages, cultures and systems of religious belief can bring new insights and a re- examination of one's own beliefs. Also, living a very basic existence, so close to the ground, and so close to a people who lived very much in the way we suppose Jesus might have lived can also change one's worldview. How different Australia must have seemed on your return!
What did you notice most on your return - from your acquired Zulu understanding of the world? And how did that affect your later scripture search?
Sue
locked"A Priest among the Zulus" by Brian Pitts now online...
by Beehive , Brigadoon West Australia, Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 20:27 (431 days ago) @ Sue
My greatest asset was my Zulu understanding of the world.[/citation]
What did you notice most on your return - from your acquired Zulu understanding of the world? And how did that affect your later scripture search?Sue
Thank Sue for your comments. I was like a migrant coming to a strange country.I just had to adjust and get on with it. I found people worrying about insignificant things,chasing after wind,spending like there was no tomorrow.
There is no short answer to your second question. But the starting point of any message, parable, prophecy etc in scripture is first to ask "What did the people
of the time understand by it?" This means finding out is their meanings of the words, their way of life, their beliefs etc. All these things affect what we hear in a message.
Cheers Beehive
lockedBeehive, thanks for this, look forward to 2nd edition.
by Bill Dowsley , 'Wombeyan, NSW', Wednesday, March 21, 2012, 10:55 (430 days ago) @ Beehive
What most impressed me was that you are in love, are loved and happily married.
That beats all. That's manly.
locked
