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Overview of the Australian Bishops' November Plenary... (Main Forum)
by Brian Coyne 
, LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, December 11, 2011, 01:43 (529 days ago)
The official overview of what was discussed at the Australian Bishops recent November plenary can be viewed at:
http://www.catholic.org.au/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=1210&a...
There are a few interesting topics in the discussion although so much of the work these days seems to be bureaucratic paper shuffling. So much of what the Church does these days seems like this massive bureaucratic bulldozer that just "rolls on" driven by bureaucratic imperatives rather than by anyone being able to exert any sort of "strategic overview" of what the overall objective is and any really intelligent analysis as to whether the endeavours in total go anywhere remotely close to achieving the objectives. The entire "New Evangelization" initiative is probably the biggest example of this but I pick up a similar feeling of much else that goes on in the institution these days — and it's probably a million times worst at the international level in Rome.
Perhaps the most surprising topic on the entire agenda was the following:
ISSUES RELATING TO INTERNET PORNOGRAPHY AND CLERGY
Sr Lydia Allen RSM, from the staff of Good Shepherd Seminary, gave a presentation on issues relating to internet pornography and clergy. The Conference resolved to establish a working part to consider policy and action on this. Archbishop Philip Wilson, Bishop Peter Ingham, Bishop Brian Heenan, Bishop Eugene Hurley and Bishop Peter Comensoli will comprise the working party.
I have wondered for quite a few years how much a temptation the availability of easy access to porn on the net might pose to the celibate men in the clerical estate. The curiosity alone to many must be almost killing. It seems that the very fact this is a topic now raised at the ACBC level suggests that it is "a problem". What in the dickens they can do about it though I should imagine is not very much other than order compulsory recitation of the rosary for all priests during their off duty hours, or try and get the priests to listen to rebroadcasts of Bishop Fulton Sheen's radio broadcasts as an antidote to the temptation or.....
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or maybe this committee might suggest the priests develop an addiction to reading Catholica LOL!
![[image]](http://catholica.com.au/images/CatholicaICO_30x30.jpg)
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedAnother interesting topic on the agenda: education funding...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, December 11, 2011, 02:49 (529 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
Another significant item on the agenda was funding of Catholic schools. There are two major governmental reviews underway in Australia related to government funding of education. The Gonski Review is looking at funding of primary and secondary schools and the Bradley Review is looking to how universities are funded and organised. Both reviews will be handed to the Federal Government in the New Year, 2012, and have led to much politics right across the education sectors in Australia.
There's no mention on the agenda of the ACBC any discussion at all of what is going on in Catholic tertiary education and I have previously drawn attention on Catholica about how what is going on there seems to travel "beneath the radar" of the vast majority of the nation's bishops busy as they are with a thousand and other priorities. Some have been paying a lot of attention to the matter though and the attention they have been paying to the subject could have major ramifications for the entire Catholic ethos in Australia for a century or more into the future.
On the agenda at the November Plenary though was discussion of the work of the National Catholic Education Commission in submissions to the Review being chaired by David Gonski. The NCEC has also developed a website trying to gee-up political support from parents and those actively involved in Catholic education for Catholics to continue to be given an equitable share of the total education pie. The website is quite informative, most of it presented in a non-technical way, but you can also burrow down to the more detailed submissions the NCEC has been submitting to the government and the review panel. You'll find the website at: http://www.fundinginfo.catholic.edu.au/
That information may be of particular interest to readers of Catholica in other countries who are curious of the raves I continually make about how blessed the Church is in Australia because of the massive amount of funding provided to Catholic education each year. For example if you multiply out the two figures provided on the front page of that website: the average student receives $10,008 in funding and there are 712,864 students in Catholic schools the total revenue flowing to Catholic Education is $7,134,342,912. That figure vastly outweighs today what the Church would collect on the Sunday collection plate across the nation. By the way that figure of 712,864 students represents 20% of the total school population in Australia. Prior to about 1970 by far the largest income stream for the Church in Australia would have been the Sunday Collection plate and things like Parish and School Fetes.
I mentioned the other day that Tom Roberts gave some statistics of the decline in Catholic schools in the United States and I promised to look up some comparative figures with the situation in Australia. The best I've been able to find so far is this graph in an Australian Bureau of Statistics report of just the recent growth:
![[image]](../misc/images2011/SchoolNumbers_550x206.gif)
Source: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/lookup/4221.0Main+Features32010?OpenDocument
Note: There are slight differences in the figures given in the graphic above and those given on the earlier Catholic Education website I mentioned. The Catholic education website, for example, says there are 1,701 schools educating 20% of the population, the ABS figure is 1,708 schools representing 18% of the total schools.
What I'd really like to locate is a graph showing the increase in the number of schools over, say, the last 20 or 30 years. The increase today has more or less plateaued as the above graph demonstrates.
![[image]](../marketplace/fpau/prod_images/9781570759468_210x311.jpg)
By contrast here is the paragraph from Tom Roberts' book which I found quite astonishing as a contrast to the situation here in Australia...
Other figures that indicate an incredibly shrinking church are the drop in Catholic elementary schools from 8,414 in 1975 to 5,889 today; the elementary school population has dropped from 2.5 million to 1.5 million. Catholic secondary schools numbered 1,624 in 1975, and that number has dropped to 1,205 today. The number of secondary students in that time has gone from 884,181 to 611,723.
Tom Roberts, The Emerging Catholic Church, Orbis Books, 2011, p22
Given the relative Catholic populations of the United States and Australia it would seem to me that Australia has far more Catholics in Catholic schools per head of total Catholic population than is the case in the United States. Ironically the sacramental participation rate statistics in the United States are superior to those in Australia. I doubt there is a correlation between the two statistics. The higher participation rates in America seem more connected to the founding culture in the United States and the greater prominence given to God in US culture and the talk of politicians. Australian politicians, in contrast to American politicians, don't end every speech saying "God bless Australia". We are a far more secular nation ironically with a greater separation between the state and religion in our political discourse and everyday language, but a far higher relationship or partnership in the practical and financial provision of services like education, health care and aged care.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
Brian,
I'm surprised that you are surprised by this item on the Australian bishop's plenary meeting agenda. The Internet pornography issue is HUGE in our society. It's affecting everyone: laity of every age: Clergy of every denomination, and rank. It is an addiction that is now pandemic, affecting millions of people, and we have not even begun to estimate the damage it is causing humanity as a whole.
1. It is a multi-billion dollar, unregulated industry.
2. It is increasingly global.
3. It is complex, resisting social analysis.
4. It divorces humanity from sexuality, warping it.
5. It adversely affects human relationships/communities.
6. It fuels the sexual slave trade.
7. Etc., etc., etc..
I know there may be here, on my part, a little whiff of histrionics evident in the above assertions. However, it is prompted by personal experience in the subject. As a celibate priest with 47 years of pastoral experience behind me, I have indulged (much to my shame) in the personal consumption of the product of this ugly, subhuman trade. I found it to be spiritually destroying and difficult to put aside. I have also witnessed the devasation caused by it to the lives of others, my parishioners, young and old and have tried to lead them and myself out of it. It is soul destroying, just as destructive to the life of the Church as any of the shenanigans visited upon us by our respective hierarchies.
I just thought I would share this with you, as well as to thank you for the magnificent work Catholica is doing for our global church community.
Father Desmond Daly.
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
by Helen , The other side of Australia, Sunday, December 11, 2011, 12:20 (529 days ago) @ Desdaly
Such honesty is amazing - it must have taken some courage to write this and it shows the extreme down side of the internet. At the same time, sharing Catholica world wide also shows the upside of the internet.
Helen
Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ
lockedTime for confession everybody...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, December 11, 2011, 13:45 (529 days ago) @ Desdaly
Des, thanks for your contribution and confession. I'll share my own confession publicly with you as a gesture in response.
My surprise at the matter being on the agenda was not so much a surprise that this is a huge problem in society ... nor even amongst priests. I have long suspected that it was simply based on my own personal experiences as what I have always assumed to be as "a pretty normal, heterosexual male". My surprise has been more in the realms of the honesty of the Australian Catholic Bishops admitting it in such a very public manner.
I do honestly believe one of the significant reasons why sex has become totally "out of control" in modern society is because of the manner in which the Catholic Church at its very highest level marginalised itself as a contributor to any sane discussion about human sexuality in 1968 at the time of Humanae Vitae. The tragedy of Humanae Vitae is not so much the immediate damage it did to married couples (taking away the responsibilities that were rightfully theirs to make moral discernments), I submit it was the total emasculation of the institution's position as a moral authority about anything. The vast, vast majority of ordinary Catholics simply do not believe the bishops any more when they open their mouths on many subjects. That is reflected by the fact that across the Western world nearly 90% of the baptized has simply stopped participating and stopped listening. Even amongst the 10-14% still participating and in the smaller cohort of that still producing families you don't need to be an Einstein to work out that most married couples today do not follow Humanae Vitae to the letter. They simply ignore this aspect of Catholic Church teaching.
Then our glorious Holy Mother Church goes and gives a Papal Knighthood to Rupert Murdoch who of anybody in the world has exploited the basest tendencies in human nature to create one of the largest media empires in the world. The people who advertise various forms of sexual services in Rupert's newspapers, and late at night on his television networks, are not stupid. They are not handing over their money to Rupert because they love Rupert and they love contributing tens of millions of dollars each year to keeping him in clover and eligible for "papal knighthoods" or so he can make donations of $10m to the building of Catholic Cathedrals like the one in Los Angeles. They "advertise" because the advertising works and people actually do use those services. The behaviour must be nearly on a par with giving the green light to the late Marcial Maciel Degollado as the late grate did!
I honestly, and deeply, do believe the single greatest moral tragedy the Catholic Church has facilitated in our lifetimes was in allowing Alfredo Ottaviani the power he was given to dictate Catholic moral teaching and policy in the way he was over the issue of artificial contraception. It emasculated the entire moral authority of the Catholic Church to be an intelligent contributor to public debate on virtually any moral subject whatsoever. The tragedy is magnified, as it has also been in the sexual abuse crisis, by the utter gutlessness of those "at the very top" to acknowledge the depth of the moral mistake and to correct it. In other words the "greater sin" is not the original error (in the case of the abuse the transgressions of the offending priests, or in the larger case the offense of Ottaviani), the greater sin is the "cover up" and the refusal to acknowledge the truth by those in positions of higher moral authority who came later.
I broadly agree with you, Des, I also think sex is largely "out of control" in society today. And part of the reason I argue this state exists is because the major institution that might have acted as a "stabilising or moderating influence" in the great public discussions that have gone on since the advent of the so-called "sexual revolution" effectively cut itself off at the knees in being a contributor to the public debates. The so-called "sexual revolution" was largely triggered by the technological revolution that allowed women to control their fertility in more scientifically accurate ways and, through that freed them to enjoy sex in the same ways men have always "enjoyed sex". Prior to the advent of reliable forms of artificial contraception the norm in the great swathes of society was that sex for women was something to be feared. Maternal mortality in pregnancy was high in many places. Having sex for women carried a higher risk for women of death than it ever did for men. Almost all of us would have women in our family trees who died trying to give birth to a child. The huge thing was the responsibility for caring for another human being for 18+ years — feeding it, clothing it, nurturing it, teaching it. Women couldn't afford to enter into any sexual act lightly. The stories one hears from our mothers' generation are that they rarely had orgasms. I know of one case where a woman who in her elderly years admitted to her daughters "I think I might have had an orgasm once"!. Sex for many women was dealt with in many marriages as a "conjugal duty" — letting the old boy get his rocks off while the woman stared at the ceiling and "thought of the mother country" and hoped to God the old boy would get it all over and done with quickly.
Humanae Vitae was thought up by "celibate old men" who had no understanding whatsoever of the sexual and moral needs and urges of half of humanity, women!
Perhaps it is some form of ironic justice today that a national Bishops Conference now has it as an "agenda item" because the whole subject has become a significant problem in its celibate middle management ranks! Ottaviani's "sin" has come back to bite all of the bishops and all of the popes "on their private bits".
As I said at the beginning I have a "confesssion" to make. I'll make it as obliquely as I can but I am sure most thinking people might be able to work out what I am trying to say. I was married at the age of 20 and my wife and I "faithfully followed" the directions of the bishops on family planning and their dictates on sexual moral law. I was married for a total of 24 years but in the last four of five of those living on the other side of the continent for business reasons not because I perceived there was anything at all wrong in the relationship with my wife. The marriage did eventually break down for a complexity of reasons. One of the reasons is that I did have a brief extra-marital affair about ten years before the eventual collapse of the marriage. I had ended that affair and disclosed it to my wife funnily enough because in the end I could not "live the lie" (in an affair you can share "all your secrets in pillow talk with your mistress but in the case of your relationship with the one you really profess to 'love' you can share 'all your secrets in pillow talk' except one, the fact that you are also 'getting a bit on the side' or 'there's another woman in your life as well'". That "affair" was one of the many things thrown back at me as to why our marriage had to end. After my marriage ended I was celibate for ten years until I met my present wife.
I admit that right through my first marriage and through those years of "involuntary celibacy" I really did wonder how it was possible for any person to live a "truly celibate life". (For a considerable part of that ten years I did seriously discern if I might take up a celibate religious vocation.) I honestly didn't believe, given my own experiences, that it was ever possible for any male to be completely sexually satiated. It has never been a surprise to me that brothels existed (though I have never used one) and that many men are never fully satiated by their wives. (And believe you me I honestly did believe I had what might be defined as a "next to perfect" relationship with my first wife sexually and in every other way.) As I have disclosed in the past, during those ten years of "involuntary celibacy" I did despair that I would ever find another woman whom I could share my life with. Not, mind you, some sort of despair because I had an insatiable sexual appetite or because I was some kind of monster, or anything like that but simply because I do have a self-appreciation that I am weird and, for example, work dumb hours compared to everyone else and my work habits and intellectual interests might be considered as "weird" to the mainstream of men. It really was a "miracle" finding my present wife over the width of a continent. She's as weird as I am and she's honest enough to admit it LOL!!!
The hard part to say in this entire confession is surprisingly the next bit because it might be misinterpreted by some as a form of bragging and not believeable. The two of us were only discussing this a few days ago. I think the real surprise for both of us came, and in a slowly dawning way, only after our relationship had been consummated. Today we both do experience a sense of "sexual satiation" that neither of us had thought even remotely possible in our previous experiences of life. I think we'd both confess today that we still do not pretend to understand fully why this should be so: is it simply a factor of age and greater physical, emotional and sexual maturity or is there truly some "spiritual dimension" to it (e.g. that we were both extremely patient in waiting in that long period after our initial relationships had broken down for "the perfect partner" to present themselves? ["perfect" in the sense of "perfect for one another" rather than in any sense of "absolute perfection"]).
One of the surprising side-benefits of all of this is that prior to my present marriage I had honestly come to the belief that it was impossible for any person, particularly a male, to live a truly "celibate life". In other words all priests do masturbate or do need "stick magazines" or the modern equivalent "internet porn sites". To me the idea of a man living a truly and totally celibate life called for a human endurance which would be beyond the reach of most men and would require a strength of will and character beyond normal endurance unless the individual had been somehow "cracked in the head" to start with. I have changed my view slightly over the past five years having now experienced a state of "sexual satiation" that I never thought possible — and somewhat ironically because the satiation has not come through an absence of sex — I do find it at least possible that a celibate individual could find a position of satiation without the need for sex. Again, I can't explain that. It remains just a theory of mine and I don't expect there will be many celibate men who are going to own up to the most initimate details of how they have dealt with the demon of sexual need and intimacy in their lives.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedAbsolute truth...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, December 11, 2011, 14:16 (529 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
In case newer readers of Catholica are not yet aware of it I include below an excerpt from the BBC television series made around the time of the Great Jubilee of Christianity in 2000, that I think cuts to the heart of the problems of Humanae Vitae and the loss of moral authority by the Catholic Church...
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedAbsolute truth...
Brian
I had know idea..amazing..But in 1971 they advised my Sister who is now deceased to take the Pill just incase she was raped by a Native in NG when she went to the Missions, my Catholic Mother did exactly that sent her the Pill in the Post every two months. Plenty of girls i knew and married couples took know notice of the Church and took the Pill because they just didn't want ten kids..is that a crime?
Macbee
lockedAnother priest's view...
by Letter to the Editor , Monday, December 12, 2011, 08:45 (528 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
A priest friend, now married, sent this in. For obvious reasons I will not include his name.
Thank you for raising the point about the bishops' conference and pornography. Without too many details, it is a massive problem, even in conservative seminaries, maybe especially in conservative seminaries. In the midst of my depression I was called by the local bishop as my own internet porn use had become known to him. He was extremely pastoral, sensitive and understanding. If you're interested, I could explain further. So, it's a good thing that it is being spoken about.
lockedAnother priest's view...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Monday, December 12, 2011, 09:26 (528 days ago) @ Letter to the Editor
My response which has been sent by email
Thanks for this. I have long suspected it was a problem but I was surprised to see it is now listed as an agenda item at a national bishops' conference. Unfortunately I don't think anything will penetrate Benedict's head about the problems facing the Catholic Church. Talking to Benedict is like trying to have an intelligent conversation with ... all of them have their firmly embedded views of what "being Catholic" is all about and no one has the slightest chance of penetrating their certitudes. I'm sure not even Jesus himself if he put in a personal appearance to any of them and explained all the evidence as to why so many have left the Church would convince them. As I keep writing society is dealing with forces in the human psyche here that are greater almost than any other forces known to humankind. These people bring down entire nations and civilisations with their certitudes.
Depressing as all that is I am also optimistic there is a lot of good stuff happening diversely in all sorts of places around the world and even around our nation. It's all uncoordinated at the moment, just many, many people searching for alternatives — not wanting to set up other churches, still wanting to identify in some way as "Catholic", pissed off with this takeover by forces that are antithetical to the insights of Vatican II. I think all we can do is "encourage the conversation". I’m not even sure that it will eventually coalesce into a single movement. People might be over "institutions" and "formal structures" and in the future we might see a much flatter, more diverse and more democratic sort of arrangement with a whole lot of people finding unity in a common "family name" or "identifying mark/name" such as "Catholic" but it's no longer about creeds and trying to demarcate who is "saved" and who isn't, but the "unity" is more centred around a "way" of looking at or processing life. That seems to be what Jesus was on about rather than giving us a whole set of rules and creeds that we had to subscribe to on pain of eternal damnation if we didn't.
We feel greatly encouraged by the continued support Catholica is now generating both in terms of the constant increase in readership figures and also our financial appeals this year which have both exceeded their targets. We receive much good will from a lot of people, including many active priests, religious and laypeople, who are still in there and have no intention of joining the 86% who have left. I thought I knew where we were going when we started this five years ago but the further we move forward the less certain I become and now I just leave all that up to "the Spirit". My role is to just publish as effectively as I can each day the commentaries that appear in my inbox and these days there are more of those than I can hope to ever publish and get any sleep whatsoever.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
locked
Another priest's view...
by Francis , Kingsgrove, NSW, Monday, December 12, 2011, 10:25 (528 days ago) @ Letter to the Editor
"If you're interested," ... yes, I am interested ... "I could explain further." ... if it were to help us understand the problem better. "So, it's a good thing that it is being spoken about." ... Yes, if it doesn't just stay talk and there is no real walk the talk ... and not just rules and regulations but serious discussion about forced celibacy. A priest is a priest to be priesting. A priest does not need to have further difficulties added. When a priest can achieve the joy of personal empowerment as a priest and service to his/her parish without the stress of sexual fulfillment by having a partner to share the joys and sorrows of pastoring, the better the priesthood will be.
Francis
My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.
lockedAnother priest's view...
How many times have I heard from priests themselves, how money was given to seminarians on a Saturday night to go and visit a prostitute to 'relieve' themselves? About time the bishops began to raise the topic of pornography, but this would only be the surface, I would well imagine now, with the amount of material that has come to light on the sexual lives of 'celibate' priests. Just what century do they think we are living in anyway??
lockedTime for confession everybody...
Brian,a million thanks for your honesty and candor. I believe that, in your case, the gift of a wonderful sense of humor has helped you deal with the "stuff" of life. And, let's face it, each and every one of us is gifted, yes, gifted, with his/her very own weirdness. I heard a good one the other day from one of our older priests, much older than my 72 years. We were discussing the realities of the "priestly gift" of celibacy as the hier-ups call it. This guy doesn't say much, but when he does say something it's usually very weird and funny: he looked up from his beer and said: "listen, lads, celibacy is better than no sex at all". Talk about a cynical sense of humor!
These days all of us are wondering about the new guys coming out of the seminary. We call them the JPIIers, and we wonder how they are going to live out their celibate lives, especially given the prevalence of cybersexuality. We also wonder about how much longer it will take for some Pope (certainly not the present incumbent)to wake up and say "OK. enough is enough, let's make celibacy optional".
Thanks again, Brian, for your sharing. God has been good to us all.
Des
locked
Time for confession everybody...
by Roy , Monday, December 12, 2011, 11:23 (528 days ago) @ Desdaly
edited by Roy, Monday, December 12, 2011, 12:01
"listen, lads, celibacy is better than no sex at all".
that is so funny Des 
....nuthin' like having an excuse for gettin' none! 
thank you
lockedBlaming the oldies or the youngies...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Monday, December 12, 2011, 11:47 (528 days ago) @ Desdaly
Thanks, Des. I was particularly interested in the comment that came in from the other priest friend, now married — I refuse to say ex-priest now as I think many of these guys who have been forced out are more "priestly" than they ever were and continue doing very priestly and pastoral things in their new lives outside "the official Catholic enterprise". His comment was particularly interesting as I know he went to one of the most conservative seminaries in the land and he himself was very conservative as a newly ordained priest before he "saw the light" or was "mugged by reality" (hence we have a lot in common LOL).
In a conversation with another priest (still serving) during the week we got to discuss what we call the "Marcial Maciel phenomenon" where these very conservative individuals lead "double lives" and their "conservatism" seems often as some kind of "foil" or seeming "self-deception" to what else is going on privately in their lives. One sees a similar thing at times in secular politicians as well. I agree with you that these so-called "John Paul II priests" are a time-bomb the church is planting in its sanctuary that will explode in a couple of decade's time. They are a real worry — totally green behind the ears some of them. I've finished Tom Roberts' book and will publish my review tomorrow. He has some good observations also on this "Marcial Maciel phenomenon" and the JPII legacy that fostered it. Should we blame these young men or should we blame the "old men" who fostered this culture and takeover of Catholicism?
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedBlaming the oldies or the youngies...
by Francis , Kingsgrove, NSW, Monday, December 12, 2011, 14:01 (528 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
"should we blame the "old men" who fostered this culture and takeover of Catholicism?" ... reminds me, Brian, of the old African Muslim women who were the enforcers of female sexual mutilation.
Francis
My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.
lockedTime for confession everybody...
Brian
How very interesting, people have asked me often how did i come to the decision to stay alone, well it was easy i love the man i married but once i was a wife the old Catholic way that i had to submitt came tearing into my mind, when i realized i could not live this way i divorced him while he was still living in the house with me so he would or should i say could go and find a woman who could be a true wife but he didn't want to leave me, we talked a lot with words coming from him that he loved ME and that he wanted to stay with me, live with me for the rest of his life. Our wish to re marry was something that was always on the agenda until i left to deal with my abuse after that the grief he felt for me did not bring us together but tore us apart. The treatment of me at the hands of the Catholic Church shocked him, he thought like me due to my Mothers Family being so involved with the Church, the nuns, my Sister Gabby going to the Mission that i would be treated with respect when that didn't happen and my journey went on and on as if there was going to be no end to the whole saga by the time i got the Bishop to Ballina in 1998 my relationship was over, my friendship was over with this man that one day when i was just sitting in the pub by myself looking out the window in 1982 he walked past, look in, i shook, my heart pounded thinking who the hell is that, what the hell is going on here..he walked to the bar and asked for a beer then said who is that woman over there because i am going to marry her, we had not even locked eyes. One thing i did wrong was i married him for the wrong reason and that reason was i trusted him with my child, i knew he would never go to her room or hurt her in anyway..when i should of married him because i loved him and wanted him as my husband first. now that is a confession, on Catholica at that. I like being alone but ofcourse if a nice man appeared in the distance and our eyes met i would know that he was the one for me. Thanks for being so honest Brian its a rare thing.
Macbee
lockedTime for confession everybody...
Brian, thank you for such an honest and candid story of the journey of your life and loves. It struck me when I was reading it, that what has been missing has been a people of God who were encouraged to reverence their bodies and their sexuality in a way as to develop a oneness with being man or woman in a physical and sexual sense. Then I let my imagination run away with me. Imagine if in religious formation (the last 40 years) young women and men were encouraged to discuss their sexual experiences (or lack of them) and get a handle on how to actually reverence themselves in this aspect and deal with the almost certain overwhelming desires for intimacy that naturally come to a young heart and body. Imagine being told to go and get full body massages and enjoy the physical touch of another human being and relax into their bodies. Imagine being told that 'particular friendships' were good and healthy and would shed life and light on relationships that could ultimately sustain them through life. Try telling young poeple that it is OK if sometimes they give in to the temptation to pleasure themselves and that it isn't the mortal sin of the century or the end of their vocation.
I suspect that if this had been the attitude after Vatican 11 we would be seeing far less sexual abuse cases by male and far less psychological and physical abuse by female religious. We would see happier and healthier priests, religious and single(and some married) people.
Sexual experimentation went on/goes on in religious communities just as it does in lay life. How clandestine it had/has to be and how destructive that can be. I can remember thinking in my second year of religious formation,"I wonder why no-one has ever asked me how I am getting on with my vow of chastity, why they have never asked me if I was used to having a regular sex-life(which I was)and how I am doing living without it". No-one ever did.
lockedCatholic sexual teaching: designed to protect the celibate from temptation?
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Monday, December 12, 2011, 23:39 (527 days ago) @ asitavi
Asitavi,
I really do wonder if the entire origin of Catholic sexual teaching, going back centuries, was not primarily designed to try and protect the celibate from temptation and "to hell with the needs of the laity"?
I've been arguing for years that the institution needs to go right back to the drawing boards across the entire canvas of human sexuality. In the present climate I expect there would be "dead bodies in the streets" before it is likely to happen because of this remnant element who have invested so much in the institution being infallible on this entire subject. As most intelligent parents would tell you today the vast majority of young people today "experiment" in ways that would have been an anathema to our generation ... and they all wake up the next morning and realise they have NOT been struck down by a ball of lightning and sent immediately to hell. This is one huge area that most parents have to deal with at some stage as their children become sexually mature. Most of them have a sense these days that they get absolutely zilch support from their bishops or the institution when it comes to having an "intelligent authority figure" to back up any wisdom they might be imparting to their children. The young people are not stupid. They can work out from about 20,000 paces that their own parents think the advice of the bishops on this subject is totally screwed, or naive, or totally directed to appeasing the mums and dads who still do believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy themselves. If you get any "decent advice" from priests or spiritual directors it always has to be "delivered in private" out of the hearing of the temple police. How many parents and normal families have the power to access that sort of advice? Not many. Do you think anybody at the top of the hierarchical tree cares anything about this? Do you think these sort of matters would ever be on the agenda in open session at a national Conference of Roman Catholic Bishops? Not on your Nellie.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedAt least in the days of "stick magazines"...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Monday, December 12, 2011, 23:55 (527 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
... the celibate who wanted to access that sort of stuff had to do so by mail order and have it delivered in "plain brown paper packages". This is another case where technology has caught up with the church and its moral teachings. Any priest or seminarian today doesn't have to walk into a newsagent and buy a copy of Penthouse, Playboy or Man magazine with the chances of embarrassment or discovery that that might have entailed, or the parish secretary opening the wrong "plain brown paper package" (perhaps thinking it was something coming from the "Catholic Enquiry Centre"!!! LOL) It's all there, for free, on the internet and nobody has to know a single thing do they? — unless the bishops start logging internet usage, which is already beginning to happen in seminaries by the sound of it. But can even that stop it? Even with a lot of email accounts these days you cannot stop the suggestive spam that arrives in your inbox. I'm emptying tons of it each day from my in boxes and I have spam filters at about three separate choke points along the delivery path to me that stops the vast majority of it. I have long wondered what happens to celibate priests with a "hotmail" account? It must conjure visions of purgatory for the poor men.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedTransparency
You know, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the inability that the official church has in regards to being transparent in regards to sexual abuse within the church is totally connected to their inability to be transparent in regards to the sexual lives of the so called celibate religious life full stop. You see, if they had to come clean i regards to sexual abuse they would also have to come clean about the sexual lives of most of their religious and priests, the existence of a lavender mafia, the fact that, for example, as a religious friend of mine said, all of the members pf his order had 'special relationships' of one sort or another.
My God, wouldn't it just be so refreshing, scary yes for some, but so refreshing for all involved and especially for the laity, if all priests and religious and bishops and cardinals would come clean, be transparent about the reality of sex in their lives instead of constantly having to live a lie : Dear Lord, the pressure of having to live such double lives must be so destructive and exhausting. It's no wonder many turn to pornography - there is, you know a direct relationship between men especially being addicted to porn or at least turning to it, and hating one's self for whatever reason - usually guilt induced.
Thank you asitavi, Des and Brian for helping the cause of transparency along just that little bit more: The truth shall set us all free.
Oh yet we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill
lockedTransparency
by georgeh , Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 08:08 (527 days ago) @ Oh Yet We Trust
Fair enough,transparency for the "celibates"?!
Then what about the laity?!
How does that help the rest of us to have the "right" attitude to sex?!
The blind leading the blind?!
Just some questions?!
georgeh
lockedWhat leads to blindness?
The blind leading the blind?!
The normal Catholic state given the theology of; "Stop it, or you'll go blind."
Yes, George, all need to be transparent and honest but I suspect there is a hell of a lot more honesty amongst laity than there is amongst the clergy especially considering that we still live in a church world where the mentality is that religious men and women somehow bypass the normal drives, through prayer and grace of course. So, many of the clergy, religious and hierarchy have painted a picture of themselves which they still insist (via psychological manipulation) we believe (and if anything it's coming back with a vengeance) that they are somehow closer to the truth about human sexuality and therefore, we must learn from them and their very balanced lives. See, this to me is now a very warped way of looking at sex and life and somehow, that warpedness is expressing itself in all the more extravagant expressions of old church mannerisms and customs, all the distractions needed, or believed to be needed in order to not face the sex demon: But the sex demon awaits you every night when you go to bed, every time you walk down the street and see a pretty (or handsome) person and then there's the internet.
No, the more flamboyant the rituals of holiness, I am so convinced, the more the denial of humanity going on with in and I do see this happening with laity but it is a particularly religious leader problem and across all religions, especially those more fundamentalistly inclined like our present-day Catholicism.
I in no way, any more, look to any religious leader, particularly catholic ones for any kind of teaching, inspiration or hope or even compassion - THEY DO NOT CARE and it is time to take control and move on without them and their religion which is a farce, a necessary one for many, yes, but a farce, in the end.
You know what really is lacking in Catholicism, LOVE. Perhaps not in individuals who have taken their faith seriously and tried to put it into practice, but on the whole, on a community based scale, Catholicism does not at all express LOVE, it really doesn't.
Enough. I have work to do. I suppose I am still angry at the total lack of any truly genuine and meaningful and practical response from those to whom I recently wrote, but seriously, what else should one expect, and even at Christmas time, from a church which has lost its heart (not to mention its mind).
Oh yet we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill
lockedWhat leads to blindness?
Oh yet We Trust
Where and how do they put these skits together,so funny
And Amen to you when you write the truth as you know and see it people sometimes take it all the wrong way.
God bless
macbee
lockedWhat leads to blindness?
by Ynot , Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 10:19 (527 days ago) @ Oh Yet We Trust
Stephen, thanks again for writing with such clarity and passion. I agree with all this.
I hate to think of the problem of 'fixing' the institutional church, and I find in the gospel no indication that Jesus tried to fix the institution of his day. Just walk on and leave it behind, that's where I'm at, and I think you are too. The spirit calls people one by one to go into the desert and from there the spirit calls us out at the right time for...
'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'
lockedWhat leads to blindness?
by Marian , Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 18:27 (526 days ago) @ Ynot
I hate to think of the problem of 'fixing' the institutional church, and I find in the gospel no indication that Jesus tried to fix the institution of his day. Just walk on and leave it behind, that's where I'm at, and I think you are too. The spirit calls people one by one to go into the desert and from there the spirit calls us out at the right time for....
Tony, that is where I'm at too. We are all on a journey, each one gifted by the Spirit who calls us. How we use those gifts is up to us.
Shalom
Marian
who is hoping for a new way to be church
lockedThanks Tony and Marian (but wait, there's more now).....
and I fully understand what you are saying but I just can't do it, I can't and I don't really know why. To me it means dropping all anger and resentment and even fighting for justice (because it just leads to anger and resentment due to the lack of any real chance of obtaining it). Perhaps it's also because I know what's out there in the desert or perhaps it is because I have to do it, live life, myself, without a parent, the one who should have been there all along when I had a right to them.
Oh, sometimes I just feel so like I am on the edge but I just cannot jump because I simply cannot tell whether jumping will mean death or life. Does that make any sense. Jumping (taking risks) has always led to bad things happening so now, habitually I have avoided risk taking all my life and now when life is asking me to take some huge well over due emotional risk-taking, I just can;t do it. Do you have any idea how many times I have been in this position where I know what I have to do but just cannot do it. Why? Still now? My ability to be rational and maturely think has been damaged, my radar for adulthood never developed, that's what it feels like. And it makes me think also, while I'm at it, that what the hell was I saying in those posts this last week? How the hell would I know whether what I 'believe' is actually right and so I cannot make choices. I did with those posts and I am sure that making choices will also always mean making enemies and I am terrified of making enemies because enemies are bad and they get you.
There, there's a bit of deep sub-consciousness coming out.
Having said that, I now realise why I am taking on the bishops and the whole church and even my local council: it's almost a death wish: Come on, become my enemy and 'get' me. Why? Because I just cannot stand being who I am and being in the position I am in and I just want someone to take me on to force me to shift. Why, it's almost as if I am inviting abuse: Why? It confirms my life pattern and gives one a strange sense of security not to mention a damn good excuse not to take those risks I need to take. And I suppose it might just confirm me in my own mind that I am perhaps a little deranged and therefore, don't need to take those risks or even to grow up.
There, another bit of sub-consciousness coming to the fore.
Stephen
Oh yet we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill
lockedWhat leads to blindness?
by georgeh , Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 10:24 (527 days ago) @ Oh Yet We Trust
Thanks Stephen for your honest post.
I think that a lot are struggling with sexuality etc, so I doubt if you'd get a straight answer from anyone, I feel?!
That doesn't mean that people don't mean well, including catholics with a big or small "C",I feel?!
It must be that we're pretty complicated beings when it comes to straight answers on sexuality, since it is probably multidimensional, not just straight out mechanical/biological, maybe?!As far as humans are concerned anyways?!
Just a thought or two--no expert?!
Peace for Xmas
georgeh
lockedWhat leads to blindness?
by Roy , Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 12:25 (527 days ago) @ Oh Yet We Trust
some of those headers got me curious enough to have a look
thanks for the laugh Stephen ....what a classic 
good use of a wocker board
and Desi. you won't get me in one of those things again ...is where it all started 
lockedSelf abuse???????????????
Can't embed it but it's classic Dave Allen: boy does he hit the nail on the head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA-chhs5uOA
Oh yet we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill
lockedBananas - $1.99 at the moment!
by Roy , Wednesday, December 14, 2011, 10:00 (526 days ago) @ Oh Yet We Trust
Can't embed it but it's classic Dave Allen: boy does he hit the nail on the head.
Funny Stephen ..here's another funny vid ....I use it as an ice breaker with my grandsons.
So how many fathers had this conversation with their boys??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWzOQTFwRBE
I used this vid on my grandson a while back ....certainly broke the ice and since that convo I feel he is comfortable with asking me anything.
I jumped in very very early with this lad with a few serious chats about respect for others. ..and because of the porn on the net .....we have lots of convos on porn and how it has zero to do with relationships.
As relationships are about respect.
I reckon this vid is the best convo starter ...get's their attention immediately.
lockedTime for confession everybody...
by Jane , Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 11:15 (527 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
Hi Brian,
Thanks for your personal sharing. Having listened to many priests in my research on celibacy and sexual intimacy (cf: Priests in Love), it is no longer the content that engages me, but, rather, the fact of a Catholic having the courage to share. Such courage challenges the taboos and phobias that Catholicism has constructed over milennia and to the detriment of so many. Until we grapple with this issue in an open, frank and adult manner, we will not be a credible Christian community nor a positive social witness.
Jane
lockedTime for confession everybody...
by georgeh , Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 11:33 (527 days ago) @ Jane
Interesting point-"Public Confessions"?!
In the days gone by, should I say centuries,some people had to make those as part of their penance I believe,especially public figures etc?!
We'd have a ball listening to some, if the tradition was still in?!
georgeh
lockedTime for confession everybody...
by Jane , Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 13:20 (527 days ago) @ georgeh
My own view is that we need to get beyond our prurient interest in matters sexual, and start a new tradition of talking about sexuality in ways that advance our understanding of that part of our human condition. Perhaps the question might even be, why do we find it interesting in reading about a public person's sex lives? And, in doing so, aren't we acting as moral police officers for the status quo - a stance that we might otherwise reject?
lockedTime for confession everybody...
by Helen , The other side of Australia, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 11:47 (527 days ago) @ Jane
Until we grapple with this issue in an open, frank and adult manner, we will not be a credible Christian community nor a positive social witness.
Jane, I wonder how well other religions cope with sexuality?
Come to think of it, I am not aware that other Christian denominations are quite so hung up about sex as the Catholic Church is - but the whole crux of the matter is the Church is led by celibate men with the emphasis on 'virginity' as being a higher order than 'non-virginity' which me telling you this is a bit like trying to teach my grandmother to do the dishes!!!
Helen
Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ
lockedwhich me telling you this is a bit like trying to teach my grandmother to do the dishes!!!
Bit sexist ain't it?? 
Nan here's got a dishwasher and has forgotten how to do the what's it called?!
(bugger those aluminium saucepans )
locked
Time for confession....anyone else's memory jogged?
by desi , Australia, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 12:20 (527 days ago) @ Helen
![[image]](http://thejoyfulcatholic.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/confessional1.jpg)
locked"Automated Confession" Such value for money - 5 birds with one vid.......
Priest shortage, public confessions, women priests, sex and even Christmas - it's all here
Oh yet we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill
lockedThe difference between male and female confessing sexual sins
Fascinating !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Helen.......
Wonder how common this mentality is?
Oh yet we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill
lockedThe difference between male and female confessing sexual sins
by Helen , The other side of Australia, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 13:57 (527 days ago) @ Oh Yet We Trust
Poor fella sounds and looks drunk anyway - so what he says may not be absolutely true. BUT if it is - then Houston we have a problem!
Helen
Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ
lockedTime for confession....anyone else's memory jogged?
by Helen , The other side of Australia, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 13:53 (527 days ago) @ desi
Ummmmm, is it a fortune tellers booth?
Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ
lockedTime for confession....anyone else's memory jogged?
by Bill Dowsley , 'Wombeyan, NSW', Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 13:57 (527 days ago) @ Helen
It's hard to believe, Helen, but you are getting even better!! You and desi.
Thanks for the chuckle.
lockedTime for confession....anyone else's memory jogged?
by desi , Australia, Tuesday, December 13, 2011, 14:50 (527 days ago) @ Helen
Ummmmm, is it a fortune tellers booth?
Absolutely!
Your 'future' was three Our Fathers and three Hail Marys, unless you got him on a bad day and it was one Mystery of the Rosary.
lockedTime for confession....anyone else's memory jogged?
Or on an even worse day and you got the whole 5 Mysteries, especially if you were in a hurry to go somewhere.
J A Holznagel
lockedFr Des, Brother Brian - profound thanks. NT
by Englishwoman , Sunday, December 11, 2011, 16:18 (529 days ago) @ Desdaly
.
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
Father Desmond Daley
I have just lost my responce to your honesty at admitting to watching Porn on the nett, so i will not rewrite everything i had written.Just will say its about time this issue has been put on the agenda. i carn't bear the thought of a priests sitting up at night watching this especially on a Saturday then Baptising a Baby on the Sunday morning after saying Mass and handling the Body of Christ as we know it at mass. What i have learn't since coming forward with my abuse is that
Priests are men first and then Priests second.
Macbee
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
I will just add something to this and that is.. Did you know that a man that looks at child pornography and has not as yet touched a child, the minute he touches himself while watching this he then will go out and look for a victim, do to the child what he has seen on the nett this is why it is so dangerous. I wonder what will happen now up my way with all the reports that are in??
I wonder!!!!
Macbee
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
Thank you, Macbee. I always thank the Good Lord that he will never stop loving us, no matter what crazy and awful things we get into. Thank God, also, for the grace he gives us all to get out of the messes we get ourselves into.
Des
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
by Francis , Kingsgrove, NSW, Monday, December 12, 2011, 13:44 (528 days ago) @ Desdaly
Desdaly, I'm glad to share Catholica Community with you. My many mistakes gave me opportunities to try again. In some ways they (the mistakes) were catalysts to make a sharp turn. Metanoia is a right about turn. Like the computer I use the 'undo' button a lot.
Francis
My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
Thank you for this painful honesty. The whole industry of pornography is a cancer eating deeply into the life of the world today. While some claim it is harmless and victimless, how can it be, when children are exploited and often harmed in its production?
May God help all who have strayed into the influence of this vile industry.
J A Holznagel
lockeda UK opinion....
UK Television and radio personality Sir Terry Wogan in a question and answer session with the Guardian answered the cheeky question: "what is your guiltiest pleasure?" with: "I spent my entire Irish Catholic youth in a constant state of guilt over imaginary sins. I learned that nothing is a sin, as long as you don't take pleasure from it."
Tom Lee
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
by georgeh , Monday, December 12, 2011, 11:29 (528 days ago) @ judith
It's great that the natural world including us humans have been given the great sex drive to reproduce and enjoy?!
But it's a bit like fire, it can damage us humans especially, as indicated by the church struggling with it?!And we are part of that church in some ways?!
Thanks Brian for being so honest and revealing your personal journey with it.
georgeh
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
by Francis , Kingsgrove, NSW, Monday, December 12, 2011, 13:53 (528 days ago) @ georgeh
georgeh and All, my experience of living with nudity in earlier times in PNG, gave me a much cleaner and healthier respect for the human body and for its wholeness (holiness). The narrow view of sex and the human body, promoted in the 30s-50s in home life and seminary, did not prepare me or anyone for a healthy adult life.
Francis
My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
by georgeh , Monday, December 12, 2011, 14:44 (528 days ago) @ Francis
Thanks for that Francis.
So where do you think the church has/is wrong in its teachings on sexuality?!
georgeh
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
by Francis , Kingsgrove, NSW, Monday, December 12, 2011, 16:53 (528 days ago) @ georgeh
"So where do you think the church has/is wrong in its teachings on sexuality?" ... George, what I referred to wss Jansenism that is a heresy and was very much promoted during the times of my school education.
Whatever is the 'teaching' of the Church ( I am too far removed from academia to remember), I feel from experience it is inadequately balanced away from nature. Whence arose the seeming horror in whatever has been taught of anything to do with reproduction and sexual function? It seemed to me that ancient indigenous people of pre Western influence and so, free of religion other than their own, regarded sexuality as similar to the other human appetites and did not raise problems except in cases where other human rights were violated. However I am not trained in anthropology and so must have some doubts about my own views.
Francis
My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
George, by denying that the human body is as much God's gift to us as the soul; by not taking heed of the lay experts when forming Humanae Vitae; by treating women as unclean and temptresses, therefore dangerous to men; by ignoring the proper formation of young people and expecting a celibate life from them; by over-emphasizing Mary's virginity instead of her motherly love; by putting St Joseph aside, apart from the Nativity and a few more scenes; by encouraging the almost-hysterical adulation of the Pope by young religious, especially nuns, by paying for attention to sins of the bedroom than sins of the boardroom;
anything more to add?
J A Holznagel
locked
When I was in the seminary........
by BarryS , 'Uralla, NSW', Monday, December 12, 2011, 19:24 (527 days ago) @ judith
We were not allowed even discuss females.
The only reference to them was "A source of Temptation!!!!"
BarryS
I live for those that love me
For those that know I am true
For the heaven that smiles above me
& awaits my coming too
For the cause that needs assistance
For the wrong that needs resistance
For the future in the distance
& the good that I can do.
locked...would seem to desperately want to return it to that state of affairs, Barry!
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedAnd some...
Wow Brian,
You have lit up the Forum like a veritable Christmas tree!
I am moved by the different true stories of people's sex lives, not in a voyeuristic way, but actually quite surprised that Catholica bloggers added the extra dimension that makes us all "common" in the true sense of the word. After all, our reproductive organs do have to express themselves by the order of nature. Why should people here be any different in expressing the sexual desires than any priest, nun, bishop or dare I say it even a Pope! Our sexuality binds us as a species in nature by our common humanity. Doesn't it? Our "common" physical humanity cannot be erased by the action of magic words or actions, can they? Or have I started another bushfire here by not consulting the more learned Thomistic scholars within our ranks? Thomas Aquinas had an answer for everything didn't he? Oh dear, I see another bushfire coming on! Never mind, it's done now!
On a lighter note, I am going to plant my tongue squarely in my cheek and suggest to you Brian that you start a "Catholica Ricky Lake" (or Jerry Springer) contribution column. Since most people have given confession (sorry reconciliation!) the arse it may provide a modern, Vatican II style Catholic sexual catharsis and genuinely solve some of problems that those of us that still use this sacrament have. By this I mean the assumption that anyone going to confession, is expected by the priest in the box to admit at least one sexual sin, even if they haven't done it! It's the stereotype of confession always being sexual in some form or another that will unlock all the angst for those of us that disappoint the PP by not having done anything in the cot that month, and merely tell him that we have merely lied, or been dreadful to our parents that month!
OK. Litmus test here right? Remember in the days before everyone routinely went to Holy Communion? (and I'm NOT being facetious or sarcastic here, Pius X encouraged daily Communion). How many of us walked past that man or woman in the queue before we knelt at the rails and thought " Who is he or she bonking"? Or is it just my perverse, twisted mind that thought like that?
Now that's it! Right? No more revelations about the boring sexual life of Athanasius! That's as far as I will go in public humiliation and self-deprecation.
But I will reveal it's my ability to do it here at Catholica so freely amongst "fellow travelers" that makes it just a little bit more interesting than it actually is, in addition to my love of taking the piss out of myself! Wie schade!
athanasius
lockedTwo thoughts in response...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Wednesday, December 14, 2011, 04:37 (526 days ago) @ athanasius
Two thoughts in response, Athanasius...
1. I think the whole thing about reconciliation needs to be re-visited almost as urgently as the whole canvas about human sexuality. The idea of a bit of "critical self-analysis" with a skilled counsellor and life, or spiritual, guide is just basic commonsense. Today the landscape is becoming littered with all sorts of counsellors, shrinks, "life coaches" and whatever. As in so many other realms of life, the Catholic Church was a pioneer in this territory (until the Jansenists began to screw it all up — and long before you and I were born). Allied to that: who amongst lay people today has confidence that priests have been adequately trained as spiritual directors, confessors or life coaches? Would you trust a "John Paul II priest" as being able to provide you, or your children, any sane guidance in these great matters of life?
2. On the human sexuality issue I think there are two major developments in human insight — coming from realms such as medicine, psychology, psychiatry, neurology, and the social sciences, etc. The first is that Life, or God, is massively profligate in the potential to "make new life". I don't know how many spermatazoa and chromosones I've produced in my lifetime — probably counted in at least the millions if not the billions. I am the father of three living children. (And I didn't deliberately limit my family. We planned to have six if I remember correctly and we did: one miscarried, one was a still birth and one only lived for seven days.) This over-emphasis on the procreative responsibility in the light of this modern evidence is simply a wank on the part of celibate old men. Allied to that insight is the reality that most people in long term relationships can tell you is that in the great majority of instances in life when a person "makes love" it is NOT to fulfil some procreative urge or responsibility. It is to fulfil a need in self, or achieve a certain form of release, and very often this is accompanied with a desire for "coupling" or what, only in relatively recent times, the Church has labelled with the quaint if not accurate term of the "unitive function" — wanting to be "one" with another. Catholic teaching on human sexuality simply does not reflect those realities today albeit that Humanae Vitae did represent a "step forward" in placing more emphasis on the "unitive aspect", as did the late grate, compared to earlier Catholic thinking on the subject.
The second insight that blows all previous Catholic thinking and teaching out of the water is simply the realisation that human sexuality is not a "black or white/male-female" delineation. It is a spectrum. Like many other human attributes such as height, or weight, or eye/hair colour it can be fitted to a "Guassian distribution spectrum" ranging from people who are exclusively heterosexual orientation ranging through those who are bisexually attracted to those who are exclusively homosexually attracted. That is not something made by human beings. It is built into the fabric of life and made by God. At the extremes we even find a few individuals who don't even have the more normal x-x or x-y genetic makeup and have other curious variations such as x-x-y. Again this is not some aberration invented by human beings. It is how God made these people if you believe in a Creator-God. It seems something built into the fabric of creation and Life. Catholic teaching has to catch up with all of that. God didn't make these people like that and then condemned them to a life of hell where they are to be prevented from expressing their innate nature and orientation.
All that said, there are still moral rules and social mores in how we express our sexuality. What are they? Is the Catholic Church of any significant assistance in helping society discern its ways through what the rules and mores ought to be in light of our changing knowledge, or are they going to busy themselves trying to tuck up in cotton-wool-like security and certitude the little darlings who are too scared to think any of this stuff through? Or is it trying to protect celibate old men who've never had the responsibility of raising families and who haven't been bothered to open another book since they left seminary?
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedOn taking rectal temperatures...
Again this is not some aberration invented by human beings. It is how God made these people if you believe in a Creator-God. It seems something built into the fabric of creation and Life. Catholic teaching has to catch up with all of that. God didn't make these people like that and then condemned them to a life of hell where they are to be prevented from expressing their innate nature and orientation.
Spot on, Brian. As I don't really believe that these men in dresses in their Roman Renaissance pile have anything to do with the Creator of the Universe, despite their claims, one has to look around for an explanation for this blinkered vision about sex and sexuality.
We know that the unconscious exists and probably motivates many of the things that we do without realising it. If you have taken a vow of chastity, then it is almost inevitable that you have to keep remindng yourself that the constant "fomes peccati", the smoulderings of sin are really "bad". And indeed they are bad for celibates because if they succumb to the fomes, then they have broken their vow and are due for eternal damnation.
You can see this "badness" in the way that the old moral theology books talked about sex as "venereal pleasure", as if it were a disease.
It is only one small step from that to think that sexual pleasure is bad for everyone, apart from its "purpose" in having children. You can't have fun with it because it is the complete opposite of the "higher" virtue of celibacy.
One way of restricting married couples from having too much sex is by prohibiting contraception so as to limit the "fun" part to the safe period.
As someone once wrote here, it wouldn't take long for the ban on contraception to go if the clergy had to take their rectal temperature every day.
lockedOverview of the Australian Bishops November Plenary...
It's great that the natural world including us humans have been given the great sex drive to reproduce and enjoy?!
But it's a bit like fire, it can damage us humans especially, as indicated by the church struggling with it?!And we are part of that church in some ways?
George, do you ever wonder if that 'fire' is to do with the ultimate relationship with God?
An older woman once told me of how she had died in childbirth, but been resuscitated. In that time in which she had not been present in her body she had experienced being in a 'place' of light, joy and love. So much so that she did not want to return, even to her small children and beautiful husband. Then she leaned over to me and whispered that it had been a very orgasmic experience.
Gives a whole new way of reading Teresa of Avila doesn't it! And look at Bernini's beautiful statue of her, at the expression on her face. As a young woman, seeing a photograph of that sculpture for the first time, I remember feeling very embarrassed at such a private emotion be expressed so openly, especially on the face of a saint.
So, I wonder if that is what this wonderful gift of sexuality is all about. It's about making love with the cosmos, or the Divine. Only there, is final fulfillment to be found. The only problem is mostly we don't know that. Instead, like small babies putting everything in the mouth, we go for all sorts of stuff, some good for us, some not, only to find that in the end none of it really satisfies.
Then again, this may be just from a woman's perspective.
They used to say about heroin that it was too good to even try once. I decided it could be much the same with pornography, so I've not ventured there despite curiosity. As it is, Catholica is becoming enough of an addiction for me.
Sue
locked" As it is, Catholica is becoming enough of an addiction for me."
by Bill Dowsley , 'Wombeyan, NSW', Monday, December 12, 2011, 17:10 (527 days ago) @ Sue
To our great benefit, Sue.
locked" As it is, Catholica is becoming enough of an addiction for me."
Dear Bill, your warmth and encouragement to everyone is one of the factors that enables people to speak so freely on this forum. Thanks.
Sue
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