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More blood pressure a risin'? (Main Forum)
by TonySee 
, Adelaide, Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 17:17 (255 days ago)
Looks like the humbly-named Cardinal Pole is having a bit of a conniption now:
Unreconstructed Modernism at Catholica: Fr. Dresser and Dr. Elmer on (or rather, against) Original Sin and the Redemption
The notorious The Rev. Fr. Peter Dresser had the following things to say in a thread-starter at the similarly-notorious Catholica Australia forum ...
Peace to you
The hand is the cutting edge of the mind - Jacob Bronowski
lockedMore blood pressure a risin'?
by PeterR , Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 17:39 (255 days ago) @ TonySee
As the sub-heading from the site reads: "Australian Catholic and secular news commentary from an uncompromisingly Traditional, arch-reactionary perspective".
i.e., not open the the Holy Spirit who makes all things new.
Peter
lockedMore blood pressure a risin'?
I'm really pissed off. I never get a mention on that website despite being the most notorious salvation denier in Catholica. I'm far more heretical than Peter dresser could hope to be. Why does he leave all his venom for you believers?
lockedJames,
I think it's a kind og 'Odium Theologicum' in operation. Sometimes people 'in the club' reserve their greatest contempt for 'internal enemies'. You see this kind of thing in political parties all the time and, alas, it's a phemonenon on all sides of the 'political' spectrum.
So sorry James, that's yer lot. If you were a traditional Catholic I might console you by saying 'offer it up'. 
Peace to you
The hand is the cutting edge of the mind - Jacob Bronowski
lockedOdium theologicum
Thanks Tony, I'm going to offer it up anyway. Isn't November the month for the souls in Purgatory? Someone might get parole.
locked
He apparently doesn't waste his time on "unbelievers"
But the offer is there.
But this blog is not a mere mutual admiration society either. You are also most welcome to comment if you disagree with me or have detected an error of fact or logic.
Maybe if you take it up with him on his site.
Get to know him a little better.
It may even relieve your blood pressure.
together in the Faith of Christ
Ray
lockedTake up the challenge -- who me???
I never did see what the "heresy of Modernism" actually entailed, since most of its features, especially the subvariant "Americanism", seemed to be existing only in the Roman Curial imagination. It certainly wasn't related to any overwhelming trends or developments in ny country's history that I could recognize.
I later returned to the subject when I questioned some Jesuit historians and theologians at my Catholic U. They attributed it mostly to eccelesial political backlash against European secular developments that lost the Pope his vast Papal States...
Nowadays in the same vein, I wonder how much coming out of the Curia is a reaction to modern developments since WWII that they are uncomfortable with? They seem to feel that the youth are just panting to have abortions as a result of their non-stop promiscuity and the older adults think only of their lavish conspicous consumption and driving around in their BMWs, etc...
Haven't they been watching the statistics that have shown that the economic welfare of most of the world's population, even in the most advanced countries, has been gradually getting worse in the last 30-40 years???
Or that greed, corruption and incompetence of leaders is the chief cause of a national group's decline???
lockedMore blood pressure a risin'?
by Helen , The other side of Australia, Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 20:46 (255 days ago) @ TonySee
The notorious The Rev. Fr. Peter Dresser had the following things to say in a thread-starter at the similarly-notorious Catholica Australia forum (quoted in full, italics in the original, with emphasis added (bold type) by me to the most salient parts):
One way of advertising Catholica and of course Cardinal Pole's blog (I thought he had died about 400 years ago, but I may be wrong). Obviously he is still holding fast to the Catholic faith of the Elizabethen era.
Helen
lockedMore blood pressure a risin'?
by Nicholas , Tuesday, November 17, 2009, 22:35 (255 days ago) @ Helen
Talking about holding fast to the Catholic faith of other eras (Helen) did anyone check out today's CathNews featured website? (They have really been outdoing themselves lately in showing how broad spectrum they can be).
Have a look at today's recommended site 'Catholic Answers': http://www.catholic.com/
There you will find what to do if the 'sacred host' drops off the tongue accidentally, and other such important things as whether those who are not baptised might have guardian angels.
There are definitive, learned, but predictable answers to questions that you would never have thought to ask.
And, there's a link to 'chastity.com' via the toggle 'chastity'. A lot of firm advice there including some for women who might want to use 'the pill' for reasons other than contraception.
It's all about asking first, getting answers, and seeking permission.
lockedWho said the Catholic Church gives us no freedom?
by CathyT , Adelaide, South Australia, Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 17:37 (254 days ago) @ Nicholas
» Talking about holding fast to the Catholic faith of other eras (Helen) did anyone check out today's CathNews featured website? (They have really been outdoing themselves lately in showing how broad spectrum they can be).
»
» Have a look at today's recommended site 'Catholic Answers': http://www.catholic.com/
I seem to recall that someone provided a link to this site a while back, and I ended up deciding then that, for the sake of my mental health, I would ignore this site's existence in future. However, I couldn't resist going back there for another peek. I was particularly intrigued by a question about when Catholics take down Christmas decorations. The answer? "You can put up and take down home Christmas decorations whenever you like. It is not something the Church mandates".
So just remember, when you are putting up your Christmas decorations at a time of your choosing, the Church hierarchy DOES recognise that we can think for ourselves in some areas of life! 
Do not fear, only believe... - Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 5:36)
Cathy
lockedWhen should you take down the Christmas decorations?
by Debb , Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 19:16 (254 days ago) @ CathyT
edited by Debb, Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 19:33
The Church might offer freedom, but tradition warns of a dire fate if you don't take them down by Twelfth Night! 
Twelfth Night (5th January) is when all Christmas Decorations should be removed so as not to bring bad luck upon the home. If decorations are not removed on Twelfth Night, they should stay up all year.
Why is it bad luck to leave the decorations up after Twelfth Night?
Long ago it was thought that leaving the decorations up would cause a disaster. People believed that tree-spirits lived in the greenery (holy, ivy etc) they decorated their houses with. The greenery was brought into the house to provide a safe haven for the tree-spirits during the harsh midwinter days. Once this period was over it was necessary to return the greenery back outside to release the tree-spirits into the countryside once again. Failure to do this would mean that vegetation would not be able to start growing again (spring would not return), leading to an agricultural disaster.
It was also thought that, if you left the greenery in the house, the tree-spirits would cause mischief in the house until they were released.
http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/CUSTOMS/Xmas/twelfth.htm
lockedCardinal Pole
by PatrickW , Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 11:17 (255 days ago) @ Helen
» The notorious The Rev. Fr. Peter Dresser had the following things to say in a thread-starter at the similarly-notorious Catholica Australia forum (quoted in full, italics in the original, with emphasis added (bold type) by me to the most salient parts):
»
»
» One way of advertising Catholica and of course Cardinal Pole's blog (I thought he had died about 400 years ago, but I may be wrong). Obviously he is still holding fast to the Catholic faith of the Elizabethen era.
»
» Helen
Helen, you are right - I don't know anything of Cardinal Pole'e blog. He was Papal Legate to England, and died on the same day as Bloody Mary. But he was not "Elizabethan", having died just before her accession.
I have been reading the discussion, but have no idea what it is really about - Where is this blog?
PatrickW
lockedCardinal Pole's blog
Hi Patrick
The good man seems to have staged his re-vivification
HERE
![[image]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Cardinal_Reginald_Pole.jpg/200px-Cardinal_Reginald_Pole.jpg)
And to think that yesterday was his anniversary!
He died 17th November 1558.
Peace
V.
Stop laughing ... this is serious ... Stan Cross
lockedCardinal Pole's Blog
by gemstones , Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 13:14 (254 days ago) @ PatrickW
Here you go Patrick -
http://cardinalpole.blogspot.com/2009/11/unreconstructed-modernism-at-catholica.html
For those who can't be bothered doing the research, there are now two (2) Cardinals Pole. The new young claimant is a local lad - geographically challenged, as he claims both the Wollongong diocese and Sydney as his home.
However, he seems to be unaware of Cardinal Pole the Elder's near run-in with the Italian Inquisition, due to his palling around with the Spirituali, in Rome, Viterbo and probably elsewhere. The Spirituali wanted (among other things) to reverse the separation between Catholics and Proddies - in fact to reverse the Reformation. Pole thought that would be a great move (and who can disagree with him), as it would require a restructuring of the entire Catholic Church. He missed being elected Pope by one miserable vote, otherwise we would probably be singing from the same hymn-sheet as the Presbyterians et al.
Either by good luck or God's blessing, he avoided the Inquisition's tender ministrations, and returned to England. There is a book available from Amazon called "Heresy and Obedience in Tridentine Italy. Cardinal Pole and the Counter-Reformation".
I think we must count Reginald Cardinal Pole (the genuine) among the Spirituali, and wanna-be Cardinal Pole, among the Intransigenti.
lockedCardinal Pole's Blog
by PatrickW , Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 15:43 (254 days ago) @ gemstones
Gemstones and Veronica,
Many thanks for your assistance. So far, I have just glanced through it, but from the links the writer is obviously SSPX [Lefevrist]
PatrickW
lockedIs This Guy a Catholic?
Hmmm! So basically the dear old Cardinal has a problem with anything other than a literal reading of the scriptures and Church doctrine. Adam and Eve sinned; God had to sacrifice his son to pay the debt! Oh, and I noticed the reference to the falsity of Darwinianism. I suspect that the adoption of the name of a medieval prelate is appropriate; this blogger seems to have missed the boat to the modern world.
I find it interesting that he seems to have a problem with idea of a “symbolic” appreciation of our traditions. But isn’t the concept of “symbol” inherent to the entire sacramental character of Catholic theology? Is not the Church the “sign” or “sacrament” that points to the presence of God in the world? Are not our sacraments “visible signs of invisible grace”? Is this guy even a Catholic? He seems to completely misunderstand Catholic theology, not to mention fundamental human communication.
Concrete signs and symbols are necessary if we are to indicate and/or express hidden realities or complex ideas. The Scripture are not historical or scientific textbooks and the life, death and resurrection of Jesus are far more than mere historical events. Both point to realities beyond normal sense-experience. They express realities that underpin all existence, but are not available to the senses per se - they depend on faith.
P.S. (Added later) I just noticed this additional comment from the dear od Cardinal:
Sadly, Dr. Elmer's theology is entirely consonant with the theology of the New Mass.
So, does that mean that I am not a "modernist" after all, but just a good old post-Vatican II Catholic theologian? And does it also mean that Cardinal Pole sees the Church Fathers at Vatican II as "Modernists"? I guess we are all in good company People, since this site is dismissed as thoroughly "Modernist". Well done! Take a bow!
Ian J. Elmer
I am prepared to press onto the end along a path on which each step makes me more certain, towards horizons that are ever more shrouded in mist (Teilhard de Chardin)
lockedIs This Guy a Catholic?
by PatrickW , Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 15:54 (254 days ago) @ Ian Elmer
Ian,
I have no longer access to research "Modernism" but my recollection is that it was not modernism that was condemned by PiusX, but what he thought it might develop into.
I came across the same thing in Veritatis splendor
in which JPII condemned the "errors" of the theory of Fundamental Option. The late Josef Fuchs retorted that the views in the encyclical were not supported by any reputable moral theolgian in the world.
This modern Cardinal Pole may be doing a lot of similar "reading between the lines".
PatrickW
lockedVatican II Essential to Catholicism
Actually, Patrick, my problem was even more fundamental. Clearly, this latter-day Cardinal Pole rejects Vatican II and the reforms, especially liturgical, that flowed from it. It must be remembered that despite Benedict's overtures to the separated SSPX any of these wishing to return to the fold must accept Vatican II. The acceptance of Vatican II is essential. In many ways, Vatican II is as foundational as Nicea or Constantinople.
Ian J. Elmer
I am prepared to press onto the end along a path on which each step makes me more certain, towards horizons that are ever more shrouded in mist (Teilhard de Chardin)
lockedVatican II Essential to Catholicism
by PatrickW , Thursday, November 19, 2009, 15:47 (253 days ago) @ Ian Elmer
» Actually, Patrick, my problem was even more fundamental. Clearly, this latter-day Cardinal Pole rejects Vatican II and the reforms, especially liturgical, that flowed from it. It must be remembered that despite Benedict's overtures to the separated SSPX any of these wishing to return to the fold must accept Vatican II. The acceptance of Vatican II is essential. In many ways, Vatican II is as foundational as Nicea or Constantinople.
Thank you Ian my thoughts exactly. One of the links is to SSPX in USA which pledges "devotion and loyalty" to +B16, which seems meaningless unless we are to assume the Pope to have crossed over to their side; but the Pope has made Vat II a basis for any sort of unity with SSPX. Plese God there will be con concessions in that.
PatrickW
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More blood pressure a risin'?
by Peter Dresser , Kandos, Thursday, November 19, 2009, 20:15 (253 days ago) @ TonySee
Notorious?
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