LinearOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B (Y-not question the Sunday Readings)
![[image]](http://www.catholica.com.au/sunday/images/Y-not150912_an_640x166.gif)
Twenty-fourth Sunday of Ordinary Time B
September 16, 2012
Reading I:Isiah 50:5-9a
Responsorial Psalm: 116:1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 8-9
Reading II: James 2:14-18
Gospel: Mark 8:27-35
Jesus and his disciples set out
for the villages of Caesarea Philippi.
Along the way he asked his disciples,
"Who do people say that I am?"
They said in reply,
"John the Baptist, others Elijah,
still others one of the prophets."
And he asked them,
"But who do you say that I am?"
Peter said to him in reply,
"You are the Christ."
Then he warned them not to tell anyone about him.
He began to teach them
that the Son of Man must suffer greatly
and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes,
and be killed, and rise after three days.
He spoke this openly.
Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
At this he turned around and, looking at his disciples,
rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan.
You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do."
He summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them,
"Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself,
take up his cross, and follow me.
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it,
but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it.
Many years ago, wanting to understand more about Indian music I borrowed a book from the library of the ashram in the Himalayas where I was staying for a few weeks.
The writer of the book said that the best way to understand Indian music was to begin by looking at the training of an Indian musician.
First of all, a young boy might find himself attracted to the sound of a particular musical instrument, enough to be able to persuade his parents to let him have an instrument and some music lessons. His enthusiasm grows and after a while he become more serious about learning to play well.
Then it is time to find a proper music guru, a master musician who might be willing to teach him. That means going to many concerts and performances to listen to many musicians, until one day he hears one whose musical style really attracts him. And the more he hears that musician, the more he becomes certain that this is the teacher he wants.
The next step is not so easy. It is a matter of seeking an interview with the teacher he has chosen, and of demonstrating his ability, not just to play music, but to become a pliable student. The master may or may not accept him. Or the master might send him away for a year, to develop a little more maturity, before accepting him.
For the master it is not an easy decision to take on a student. In this system of training, the student will be required to leave the parental home and move into the master's household. The student has to be prepared to let go everything already learned and start again from the beginning. How amenable will he be to this, or will he be critical, thinking he knows better?
The student must also be prepared to put in the long hours of practice with the master, and accept correction humbly. How will the student's ego handle that?
No payment is required, the training and accommodation is free. The student must, however, be prepared to accept the master's training not just as a musician, but into a whole new way of life, a whole new identity. The master and the master's other disciples become his new family. Only by following this arrangement can the fullest potential of the student develop.
Now I have no idea whether this system of training still persists in India or whether there is a shift to a more Western model, where we have largely done away with apprenticeships, musical or otherwise, but I was reminded of what I had read in that book about Indian music as I reflected on this reading from Mark. It occurred to me that Mark was showing us something of the guru/disciple relationship between Jesus and Peter.
Firstly, Peter, who had been in the company of Jesus long enough to know him well, fully accepted him as the Anointed One, whatever anyone else might think. He has found in Jesus, his spiritual guru, and put aside his own life to be with him.
And then, unexpectedly, Peter rebukes Jesus for speaking about rejection by the religious leaders of the day, and of dying and rising. Jesus reminds him that it is not the place of the disciple to tell the teacher what the teacher should or should not do.
'Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.'
Peter has to put aside his own ideas of what he thinks is best. His 'cross', his duty, is to accept what Jesus is saying, and certainly not to rebuke him. This is not a relationship of equals, it is a student teacher relationship, and Jesus reminds him of that in no uncertain terms. He continues,
'For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it.'
If the music student cannot let go of his own ideas of the best way to play, then he will never develop into the musician he wants to be. If he does surrender to what the master wants, then the goal they both desire can be achieved. I think this is what Jesus is saying to Peter, and to all of us.
If I want to enter into that mystery that Jesus calls Abba, and I am prepared to accept him as my spiritual guide, then I must take seriously what he teaches, and put it into practice. I have to surrender my own ideas of how I think my life ought to be and 'take up my cross'.
Thinking about this, my cross is not some grand sacrifice. It is simply attending to, and not grizzling about the small duties and responsibilities that confront me each day. It is also about accepting, with as much equanimity as I can muster, all the interruptions which 'interfere' with what I want to do. This is not just the teaching of Jesus, for it finds an echo in the teachings of Islam about surrender, and in the Buddhist recognition that suffering arises out of the desire for life to be other than it is.
So that is my own understanding of this scripture reading. I had not seen it in this way before, so I have been glad of the opportunity Tony has given me to reflect upon it. Undoubtedly, there are other layers of meaning, and other perspectives about all this, including the historical background. I have looked upon it only as a text of spiritual guidance, so if anyone wants to add more, it would be most welcome.
Sue
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
by Jerome 
, Friday, September 14, 2012, 22:38 (252 days ago) @ Sue
Sue, thank you for that profound reflection.
It included the following:
This is not just the teaching of Jesus, for it finds an echo in the teachings of Islam about surrender, and in the Buddhist recognition that suffering arises out of the desire for life to be other than it is.
For me that is an awesome thought!
My own reflection started with the quote:
Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
What could Peter have been saying to him?
Was it seen as a lack of faith and trust?
What kind of reaction can there be if there is a prediction of doom, gloom, despair and suffering?
Wasn’t it an impossible scenario to imagine that such things could possibly happen to The Messiah, God’s Chosen One?
Was it an expression of disbelief in the possibility that God’s Chosen One could be killed?
Was Peter looking forward to a glorious kingship and could not understand the possibility of a martyrdom?
Wasn’t it a crushing response by Jesus to tell Peter that his protests were satanic!
Wasn’t it even more crushing that Jesus made that accusation quite deliberately in full view and hearing of the other disciples?
But turning and looking at his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, ‘Get behind me, Satan! For you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.’
Not very encouraging mentoring!
He is expecting a lot from Peter!
It seems that He must be expecting a lot from the rest of us!
It seems that He must be expecting us to face tough times and deal with them!
It seems He must be telling us that we will have our own crosses to bear.
Tough talk!
The cross He bore cost him his life!
How far am I prepared to go?
Catholica contributors have given me many new insights and understandings of so many things that are part of my religious tradition/life/upbringing.
I would like to refer to one of those contributions.
Ian Elmer’s reflection entitled ‘Who is Jesus?’ [http://www.catholica.com.au/ianstake/006_it_print.php] has been a great contribution.
For this Sunday’s reflection I recommend it.
It includes the following:
Who do you say I am?
Tying Jesus down, or trying to pigeonhole him is near impossible.
Even the four canonical Gospels offer us very different characterisations of Jesus.
Mark's Jesus is a rebel and the suffering servant who models faith under persecution.
Matthew's Jesus is a rabbi and the new Mosesfor all those seeking the renewal of the faith community.
Luke's Jesus is an historical icon and the universal redeemer who continues to act through his Church.
John's Jesus is the incarnate Word of God who can only be recognised by the mystic and seer who have undergone rebirth in the Spirit.
Who do you say Jesus is?
How does the story of Jesus provide a model and a template for your life as a latter-day member of the Jesus movement? Is your model of Jesus the only one on offer? Are the models offered by the "Big Four" valid for us today? I believe that we can answer at least the last question in the positive.
Mark's Jesus still speaks volumes to communities suffering in war and persecution, offering hope and comfort.
Matthew's Jesus reminds us that there are different ways of following Jesus, and this is often the cause of much of the conflict within the Church.
Luke's Jesus serves to remind us that the Church is universal and open to all.
John's Jesus reminds us that we should always be open to the promptings of the Spirit.
locked
On being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
by Brian Coyne 
, LINDEN, NSW, Saturday, September 15, 2012, 01:10 (252 days ago) @ Jerome
Thank you, Jerome and Sue for your reflections this week. I must say that I have been really enjoying and looking forward to these reflections on the Sunday readings each week. So often I find my own thinking challenged or refreshed by these new perspectives different people have been writing in the forum.
Two thoughts have occurred to me this week as a result of this passage from Mark's Gospel. The first thought has been: did it really happen? I actually went off trying to search whether the people from the Jesus Seminar had any comment on the lines attributed to Jesus in these passages. I couldn't find any comment from them on a quick search of the net but would be interested if anybody finds any references from biblical scholars. As Jerome seems to imply from some of this questions in the post above, even if this story is literal, there is obviously also a lot left out of the probable dialogue that would have taken place between Jesus and the other participants. What we have in Mark 8:27-35 is almost a "tweet" or at best a "postcard" size, or tabloid newspaper report of this particular meeting rather than the report one might find in a modern broadsheet newspaper.
My own suspicion is that like many of the gospel stories, this story has some factual or literal basis. But what we're reading has been "heavily reworked" by some gifted story-tellers and writers and is more than likely a post-resurrection understanding of the significance of the Christ (Messianic) interpretation of Jesus projected backwards onto the historical or literal event. Does that make it any less valid? I think not. The "real message" in this story is not so much concerned with events that happened "way back then". It is a theological lesson about how we act now (in any age of history). That's what all powerful literature does: it is providing a lesson for "the now" and our future.
I read that story and think: how utterly "real" is it in describing various behaviours we see various people exhibiting today? The Jesus story we are reading seems "real" precisely because it echoes to us today in behaviours we see around us today!
The other thought that occurred to me stems out of the other discussion we've been having in recent days on the forum about morality: how do we discern where the line, or region of grey, exists in the sand that delineates some acceptable behaviour. Here we have Peter, in this frustratingly brief couple of lines, responds to Jesus like most people would respond to the boss — trying to suck up to them by reassuring them that the "bad news" the boss is predicting is not going to happen, by endeavouring to offer the boss some kind of moral support. How many bishops do you see "sucking up to the pope" these days and trying to say the right things that will please head office, or priests, laypeople or ecclesial bureaucrats sucking up to their bosses or bishops?
What does Jesus do? Unexpectedly he turns around and berates Peter. Poor old Peter must have wondered what he had said wrong to upset the boss in such an angry way?
Jesus constantly challenges us with paradoxical answers — answers we are not expecting. Even his Number 1 earthly supporter couldn't even "get it right". How often do any of us think we're "giving the right answer" but only later discover that our answer was stupid or "way off the mark"?
![[image]](http://catholica.com.au/images/CatholicaICO_30x30.jpg)
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
by Sandra , Saturday, September 15, 2012, 16:42 (251 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
Sue, thank you for these delightful and interesting stories - I do indeed struggle with the Master at times when THE way is not the way I want to take or think is best.
Last night I was at a dinner in a Catholic setting and happened to be seated near a priest. He asked the lady next to him her name, yet she promptly replied "I am a lapsed Catholic". He said to her "do you care about ALL other people?" she quickly responded "YES". He looked at her with the deepest compassion and love then smiling said to her "well you are doing very well then, we are on the same train", then repeated "and what is your name?"
I can tell the lady and a few others within hearing were deeply moved by these words and there was a warm feeling at the table among these strangers that we were all ONE because we all care about other people as the core motive of our daily life. I sensed these people went home far more at peace than when they arrived with this short little transaction about being lapsed Catholic or 'caring for ALL other other people'.
We are the universal Jesus just by how we live with our treatment of equality of all other people. Sounds easy but it is the biggest challenge in every day for me. So 'who do people say I am'? what would their answer be?
Sandra
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
I have spent 3 days in hospital (flare up of arthritis) and found some interesting people there. Sharing a ward with a well-educated elderly lady who, when we were watching last night's news, loudly said that "they should be sent back to their home country" and wasn't exactly thrilled when I said that some of them were probably born here and that our ancestors were not Australian.
During this "discussion" a nurse came and picked up the book I was reading (Against an Infinite Horizon by Ron Rolheiser) and browsed through it, then took it away to copy the details so that she could order one as she thought it was relevant to where she is in life now.
Later, another nurse was going off duty (at 10pm) when one of us mentioned something about Germany, and he came back and sat talking to me for about half an hour about the different parts of the country we had visited. He is from a Christian Community which had connections with one to which I formerly belonged, and he asked if I knew how to get in touch with one of the men who had been a good mentor for him. I can, and will be passing on addresses.
This morning, while my discharge papers were being done, another nurse, male, of Asian extraction and a former Catholic, came to talk and we were thrashing out the woes of the world etc. especially the role of leaders in trying to force people into following their way only.
4 people who were gift to me, though in very different ways. Gems in unlikely places. Now I am grounded for a week so will have time to reflect.
J A Holznagel
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
Jerome, thanks for the feedback. I agree with you that Jesus' response to Peter was particularly crushing and that it was made even more so by being administered in public.
It is not uncommon for a spiritual guru to rebuke a trusted disciple in public. I've seen it happen once and been told it happens in other traditions too. The main reason seems to be that another less-mature disciple is the one who needs the reprimand, but that disciple would either be so devastated that they would not take it in, or so defensive that the reprimand would be useless, so the guru tries a different strategy. By focussing on the same fault in a trusted disciple in public, the idea is to get the message across to the less mature one in a way that he/she can both hear and learn from it. It is also a public modeling of the humility expected in a disciple.
This is not something that happens regularly. Only a really good spiritual guru will occasionally do this, and do it sensitively, in a way that does not psychologically harm the recipient and hopefully has the desired result for those less mature disciples. Jesus knew his man! Perhaps the other disciples were also whispering the same things among themselves?
Unfortunately, if this is a strategy of public humiliation for its own sake, as it can be in some would-be Western spiritual gurus, the result can be psychologically devastating. Plenty of people coming out of cults can testify to that!
Thank you for directing me to Ian Elmer's reflection on who is Jesus. Brilliant! I've 'bookmarked' his pieces so I can get back to them at leisure. He raises some thought-provoking questions about who Jesus can be for each of us. I wonder who he is for you...? I've been thinking about that myself. Avatar, spiritual guru, mystic, revealer of the presence of the mystery...
Sue
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
by georgeh , Saturday, September 15, 2012, 19:54 (251 days ago) @ Sue
Thanks Sue and others for some lovely reflectios.
I too ponder who Jesus is to me?!
The bridgehead to God and neighbour I guess?!
So to carry that cross of mine, I constantly seek Him out on the Journey that others are on as well, and He is in our midst, hopefully?!Jesus is the "compass", and indeed the "bread" that I need to continue the spiritual journey?!
The Mass or any church service/gathering I attend on a weekly basis is one of the ways I hope to recharge the batteries for that journey as well, with Jesus present in Spirit, as He promised?!
Peace
georgeh
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
by Nick , dianella, west australia, Saturday, September 15, 2012, 21:14 (251 days ago) @ Sue
Once again something to look forward to on a Saturday evening and compare it with what comes on Sunday!
But there are two phrases in this gospel which is gives it an unusual perspective
Whoever wishes to come after me
take up your cross
Is that in the present as Jesus speaks to his disciples ? Here it also speaks to us but why the CROSS - from a Jew who knew that the cross was for the lowest criminal element of his day?
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
by William , Saturday, September 15, 2012, 23:50 (251 days ago) @ Sue
"No payment is required, the training and accommodation is free. The student must, however, be prepared to accept the master's training not just as a musician, but into a whole new way of life, a whole new identity. The master and the master's other disciples become his new family. Only by following this arrangement can the fullest potential of the student develop."
Dear Sue,
Your comment is inspiring. The same principle should apply to our Catholic Schools.
A "preferential option for the poor" should be maintained in our Catholic Schools. If we find that we cannot afford to keep our schools open to the poor, the schools should be closed and the resources used for something else which can be kept open to the poor. We cannot allow our Church to become a church primarily for the middle-class and rich while throwing a bone to the poor. The priority should be given to the poor even if we have to let the middle-class and rich fend for themselves. Practically speaking, the Catholic Schools must close and the resources used for "Confraternity of Christian Doctrine" and other programs which can be kept open to the poor. Remember, the Church managed without Catholic Schools for centuries. We can get along without them today. The essential factor is to cultivate enough Faith to act in the Gospel Tradition, namely, THE POOR GET PRIORITY. The rich and middle-class are welcome too. But the poor come first. [ William Horan - Manchester, NH ]
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
William, the guru-disciple system is not a 'preferential option for the poor'. It is a preferential option for the enthusiastic, gifted and talented student only. While there may be no fee, there are still rights and responsibilities, as I understand it. A music guru will only have a handful of students at any one time, and they are also expected to be like personal assistants to the guru and will cntinue in that way until they become recognized performers in their own right. Even after that, their respect and relationship with the guru continues, as with an honored member of their own family.
I don't think this could be adapted to a general Christian education system, do you?
Sue
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
by William , Sunday, September 16, 2012, 19:45 (250 days ago) @ Sue
Dear Sue,
“As he was walking by the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon, who was called Peter, and his brother Andrew; they were making a cast in the lake with their net, for they were fishermen. And he said to them, ‘follow me and I will make you fishers of men’. “
This is the first Christian School –- making use of the guru-disciple, master-apprentice system.
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
William, yes, I agree- the first Christian school. However, it was a school for mature adults, for the transmission of spiritual wisdom, not the practical skills, like fishing for fish, that children need to learn if they are to break out of that cycle of poverty.
Sue
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
by William , Monday, September 17, 2012, 01:46 (250 days ago) @ Sue
Dear Sue,
“he got up from the table, removed his outer garment and, taking a towel, wrapped it round his waist; he then poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples feet and to wipe them with the towel he was wearing.”
Jesus had practical skills in practicing what he preached. We need practical skills in applying Gospel principles to modern conditions. Christian education should be directed to adults first; the children will catch on if we learn how to skillfully practice what we preach.
lockedOn being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
Whilst William's response ( and certainly his proposals for the education system ) may seem rather extreme,simplistic and dogmatic I nevertheless think his reference to the "preferential option in favour of the poor" has some merit in considering this Gospel passage.
Whilst "preferential option in favour of the poor"is at heart of Catholic social teaching it is arguably also at the heart of the Gospels
We are in Year B which mainly draws its Gopsel readings from Mark.Throughout the Ordinary Time readings so far Jesus seems to be coming into contact with and sometimes healing some of the most marginalised people of his time.
Some of disciples have given up eveything to follow Jesus , they have heard the authority of his teaching , witnessed his healings and had some profound spiritual experiences on a mountain top.
Jesus is starting to gain insight that his journey may end up with his death. However his disciples still don't "get it" and are still caught up with the idea of a "kingdom" where they may have prominent positions.
I was appreciative of Brian's post and his reference to Ian Elmer's article.The following bit struck me:
"Mark's Jesus still speaks volumes to communities suffering in war and persecution, offering hope and comfort."
In recent week's I have found the Gospel readings more and more challenging.Perhaps in part beacuse we view these passages through modern ( and often very comfortable ) Western eyes.
Life for most people in Jesus' time was probably fairly tough and at times quite dangerous.
That is still the reality in many parts of the world today ( and in some places in parts of the west as well).There are many places in the world where being a Christian or standing up for the rights of the poor will cost you your life. Many lay people ,priests and religious have suffered and will continue to suffer this fate.
They are the ones who were /are perhaps energised and sustained by a passage like this.
Maitland
locked
On being a disciple. Sunday Readings 24 B
by Francis , Kingsgrove, NSW, Monday, September 17, 2012, 13:55 (249 days ago) @ Maitland
Whilst "preferential option in favour of the poor"is at heart of Catholic social teaching it is arguably also at the heart of the Gospels
I quote Maitland, Thanks.
Thanks Sue and others for wonderful reflections.
You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.
Can I say no one there said of Jesus, "You are a great healer"? He was essentially that but 'thinking as God'. He was a healer of minds … ours. He taught us to think as God thinks by having the mind of Christ. The mind was, I feel, essentially one of compassion. However the compassion I see in Jesus and taught to us as Christ is real whereas the compassion we have is mostly limited by our need to preserve self. The self in Jesus was the other, the poor, rejected, sick and lowly. He identified his self with the self of others. The message that has come through is that what you do to the least of my brethren you do to me and that if you want to be a follower of me (Jesus) you must become one with all so that what you do to another good or bad you do it to yourself. Jesus was (Christ is) intent on making the other as one and having equal happiness as himself. Are we, dear brothers and sisters,in agreement or being too radical?
I suppose Jesus and his team were not numerous enough to really improve the lot of the poor. From work with Vinnies, who ‘help people’, I have noted the disappointment they have in that their situation never really changes. They go through rough times and receive some help. They celebrate a day of cheer but the rough times start again.
Jesus did not improve the deprived lives of most of the poor. Yes, a few were physically healed but most continued to live as many of us do but were disappointed that their lives were ones that came alright only in the end.
Jesus did not improve the standard of living for the poor of his time. Maybe he and his team did transform the physical conditions of the time. It seemed Jesus and his disciples were mainly teachers and not social workers.
Many of Jesus' followers nowadays volunteer and help the deprived to get through the tough times and actually find ways to improve their lot.
The difference seems to be that Jesus taught us how to bear with suffering, including resisting those who put the suffering on us. He taught us to think as he knew God does, that is to mean, live as being part of the family of God. He taught us to bear one another's burdens and sufferings as can happen in a human family but not always. Being as in the family of God means total sharing which does not exist in society today, but is the Way of Jesus. Is that the way it is for us now?
My brother, in the family of God, is who Jesus is for me. He teaches me Jesus can be seen in any person I come across, even one who seems intent on destroying me. Most of the people I meet are not intent on destroying me; neither are they, apart from one or other who see me as Jesus, intent on making my life equal in happiness as theirs. Most people have some feelings of compassion but are stumped to know, what they can do and if they are aware of what compassion means are afraid of lessening all they have striven for to have a good home, education and social status. A bit like the young man who was saddened when Jesus asked him to give up all he was to follow Jesus.
Who is Jesus for me? The Totally Committed One! Half measures do not come into his thinking. Pope Innocent told Francis Bernadone (of Assisi) what he proposed was impossible and Francis replied that if you, Holy Father, say it is impossible, so are the Gospels impossible. The Pope had to approve Francis’ rule for his followers.
I wonder if I have caught the gist of Jesus’ values.
Francis
My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.
locked
I think Jesus WAS on about transformation.
by CathyT , Adelaide, South Australia, Monday, September 17, 2012, 15:40 (249 days ago) @ Francis
Francis, I think that ultimately we are on the same page: like you, I believe Jesus came to make us all one family, in the best sense, and to initiate a radical new kind of society based on compassion and sharing (I hope I've correctly understood what you are saying, Francis!) But I don't think you can really say he didn't improve the lot of the poor of his time. I'd say he healed more than a few: we're often told in the Gospels that he healed "many", or "all those who were brought to him". If I remember correctly, there is not a single incident when he couldn't or wouldn't heal someone, except of course in his hometown of Nazareth, but that seems to have had more to do with his fellow-townspeople's attitude to him than anything else. More to the point, perhaps, rather than just physically improving life for people for a time(I suppose many of them got sick again, and they all had to die) the important thing is that Jesus gave them hope. In the person of Jesus, they knew that God was among them, and that God cared about them.
Another thing that I think is relevant here: I've read that in the ancient world, people had no concept of "the economy" in the sense in which we understand it and constantly discuss it. They would not have seen it as something that is under human control, and so they would've had no concept of improving people's lives through a change in government economic policy, or anything like that. As I understand it, the only way which Jesus and his contemporaries could see to make people's lives better (pysically, spiritually, in every way) would be for people to have a change of heart, and live the sort of life which Jesus was preaching. Maybe this is where you and I converge in our thinking, Francis, because as you say, Jesus' way was/is too radical for a lot of people. It is also threatening for those who have power or other vested interests in the status quo, which of course is why Jesus' chance to spread his message was brutally cut short.
People on this forum have often said things like, "Jesus came to help us bear suffering, to work our way through it, rather than end it", but I don't altogether agree. I'm convinced that what he had in mind, what he taught us that God wants, is to put an end to all suffering, misery and injustice. Of course, we are a long way from that ideal and we can't achieve it overnight. The point I'm making, though, is that we need to keep in mind that this really is Jesus' ideal. Otherwise, we can all too easily fall into the situation we so often saw in the past (and even now, sometimes), that is, the situation where Jesus' injunction to "take up our cross" leads to the belief that suffering is good, or at the very least, it has to be fatalisticly and patiently accepted. Of course, this perversion of Jesus' teachings suits those who are in positions of power and privilege, because it makes it easier for them to keep the rest of us down!
As I mentioned in my other post in this thread, this teaching of Jesus about taking up one's cross is followed by the story of the transfiguration. This is the case in Matthew and Luke as well as in Mark. Doesn't this tell us something? We can't have the Resurrection without the Cross, but we also can't have the Cross without the Resurrection.
Cathy Taggart
I splash in my poetry puddle
and try to keep God amused. - James Broughton
lockedI think Jesus WAS on about transformation.
by Francis , Kingsgrove, NSW, Monday, September 17, 2012, 16:50 (249 days ago) @ CathyT
Thank you, Cathy for responding to my post and also for doing it so well. I value your points. I don't think, however you commented on my assertion that Jesus expects total regard for the poor as much as to regard another's self as his own.
St Francis of Assisi as a young man had compassion for the poor, particularly the lepers and would throw them a coin from his horse as he moved past them. On his conversion he got down from his horse and embraced the leper.
Francis
My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.
lockedAn Invitation
by Ynot , Sunday, September 16, 2012, 20:12 (250 days ago) @ Sue
This has been a banquet of rich reflections. Thanks, Sue, for your very original leader, and to all contributors.
I'll take the opportunity to invite anyone who would like to do a lead comment to contact one of us. There's nothing exclusive about this little group, CathyT and Sue and Joe and me. There's room for more. We only need to have a simple roster so we know when our turn comes. I think we all find that doing a leader becomes an occasion to look a bit deeper into the readings, although sometimes we just know what we want to say from the start.
I'm still pickled, but the process is going to speed up from now on.
Cheers,
tony
'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'
lockedLove language
by CathyT , Adelaide, South Australia, Sunday, September 16, 2012, 23:23 (250 days ago) @ Sue
I'd also like to thank you, Sue, for a refreshingly different yet very apt reflection on this week's gospel, and thank you also to all who have joined in this stimulating conversation and given us so much to mull over.
I'd like to add something which is definitely a personal perspective: I'm not sure how biblical scholars would regard it. But the thing is, since my family has been so central to my life for so long, I tend to see the Scriptures (and life in general) through that lens. In this context, I wonder if the interchange between Peter and Jesus is really as harsh and as depressing as it may seem. On the one hand, you have Peter who has just acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah, but who obviously doesn't "get it", because he doesn't realise (or can't accept) that Jesus' Messiahship is one that leads to suffering. On the other hand, Jesus calling Peter "Satan" does seem a bit of an overreaction!
However, what if we see this as being an altercation between close family members, if we read it as being "love language" and not literal language? After all, Jesus himself described his band of followers as being his "family", and there is obviously real love between Jesus and his closest disciples. The exchange can be "translated" something like this:
Peter: Don't talk about such terrible things happening to you, I can't bear to think about it, and I can't bear the thought of losing you!
Jesus: This is hard enough anyway, and it just makes it harder if I don't have your support and your understanding that I'm only doing this because I really have to!
It's rather like that classic case where a parent says to a teenage child who has almost come to grief, or maybe it's one spouse speaking to another: "If you ever do anything that dangerous again, I'll kill you!"
We also need to see Gospel passages in context, which is something we can lose sight of when we just have discrete passages as our Sunday readings. So, let's not forget that this incident in Mark's Gospel is immediately followed by the transfiguration, at which, of course, Peter is one of the privileged witnesses. It's clear that, while the way of Jesus may involve suffering and even death, the suffering is not an end in itself, but leads to transformation, fulfilment and unimaginable joy. This is the context we need to always keep in mind when pondering Jesus' admonition that to follow him means to "take up our cross".
Cathy Taggart
I splash in my poetry puddle
and try to keep God amused. - James Broughton
lockedLove language
Sue,
Thank you, and to all who have added onto Sue's reflection for the great insights into the Gospel reading. How much we have to learn from other cultures around this planet. The Spirit moves where it wills, over all the creation.
In reading through all of the comments to your reflection, I feel somewhat at a loss to to be able to offer other insights. But, I was just reading through John Chuchman's commentary Reframing a Lay Spirituality for Today's World, and found several of his thoughts sum up what the Catholica forum, and especially the many reflections offered in Y-not question the Sunday Readings give to us:
In many respects, the development of our spirituality is a life long journey
and in many ways, this inner journey of the soul is a one on one with the Divine.
However, a genuine and lasting spirituality is difficult to develop
outside of a supportive community composed of individuals
who will both challenge us and offer guidance.
We humans are fundamentally social and communal creatures.
Thus, our spiritual journey and formation
requires ongoing communication and interactions with others
and active participation in a religious or spiritual community.
We come from many different families, yet we are all of one larger family. God's family. We bring our gifts to the table to share. It is done in love, so that we each can learn from one another. We learn more than what we may have to offer at the moment. That is the Spirit moving through all, touching our hearts and minds. That is the real miracle, as told in the feeding of the five thousand. All that Jesus did, was to initiate an invitation to share simple offerings, which grew into a huge meal feeding many, with leftovers.
We follow Jesus' invitation to share here in Y-not, and watch it grow into small miracles of love each week.
Joe
locked
