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Does BA Santamaria exert more power today than ever before in Aus society? (Main Forum)

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, September 10, 2012, 12:47 (257 days ago)

The Fairfax Press has a long extract in the National Times today on the rise of Tony Abbott and the influence of Bob Santamaria on his outlook. It's much longer than shown in this graphic below. Click it or the link below to read the full article:

[image]

Click the image above or the link below to read the full article:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/early-elections-20120903-2593o.html


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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Does BA Santamaria exert more power today than ever before in Aus society?

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Monday, September 10, 2012, 14:16 (257 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Santamaria was essentially a spoiler and a narrower.

He could undermine and a few of his followers, Tony Abbott for instance, have been good spoilers and underminers. But the test comes when something needs building. I think Santamaria helped bring about the collapse of the old Catholicism but he had nothing good to replace it with because he was trying to install something that had never existed, the medieval church of his dreams.

Isaiah Berlin called his type 'nostalgic romantics.' With Chesterton and others Santamaria longed for something that had never been. He was also a narcissist trying to create echos, subserviant followers. Narcissistic communes always fall eventually because they are based on something false. Santamaria was essentially a fake who thought he had THE answer to everything. He died thinking he had failed and in this he was right. All false messiahs fail.

Whether Tony Abbott can build something when (if?) he becomes PM we shall have to wait and see. I think he will be a really inadequate PM, if he gets there.

PS. The DLP stood two candidates in the Ryde City Council elections on Saturday and got fewer than 100 votes.

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Does BA Santamaria exert more power today than ever before in Aus society?

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, September 10, 2012, 15:44 (257 days ago) @ Enda

One thing I think is pretty evident now in this country is the way the old protestant establishment has almost totally disintegrated without a fight even*. The way these former DLP tragics have moved right across and taken over the Liberal Party of Menzies is a quite incredible phenomenon that there has been little commentary about in the media. Between George Pell's strangulation hold over the Catholic Church across Australia** and the rise to power of the Santamaria Catholics in the Liberal Party, whatever the morality of it, or the practical outcomes that it may end up producing, you do have to stand in absolute awe of how unlikely an outcome it would have seemed half a century ago.

Tony Lowes' commentary today is a two-part projection trying to imagine what the Catholic Church might look like in another 50 years. Today we present the Utopian scenario and tomorrow we'll present the Dystopian scenario.

*There is a paragraph in David Marr's essay that captures it well from the time Abbott took over the student Liberal Club at Sydney University:

His plan was to win the presidency of the SRC and collapse it from above. He was well under way. In May, he had taken control of the campus Liberal Club. It was the idea of Joe Bullock, now state secretary in WA of the shop assistants' union: "I said, 'We need a banner to fight under. We've got to have something that can draw people to us.' The Labor Club was extreme left. There was no chance of knocking it off. But the Liberal Club was a dreadful bunch of dilettantes and social climbers. And there were not many of them. So I said, 'Let's knock off the Liberal Club.' But Tony was really reluctant. 'Oh, no, I don't want to join the Liberal Club.' He made it clear his loyalties were to Labor. Eventually I persuaded him against his better judgment to join."

**Fundamentally George Pell is continuing to try and impose the Santamaria agenda and vision for Catholicism on this nation.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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Does BA Santamaria exert more power today than ever before in Aus society?

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Monday, September 10, 2012, 18:02 (257 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Fundamentally George Pell is continuing to try and impose the Santamaria agenda and vision for Catholicism on this nation.

I think this is true and I think he will fail.

And I agree with you Brian that most of these Catholics in the Liberal Party are DLP types. I think it was Ed Campion who first pointed out that the DLP was a way for Catholics moving upwards in society to pretend they were still voting Labor until it was okay to come out as big C conservatives. I know some radical types who went to Riverview and Xavier, there are some very good men among them but it is also true I think that lots of the old boys of these schools who are now in the Liberal party are DLP influenced.

Maybe the word narcissist is not fair to Santamaria, see above. I didn't know him so am not sure but arrogant fits I am sure. He was sure that only he knew best for all of us. He thought the truth had to be kept from the ‘little people’ and I think he believed that the end justifies the means. This is dead against Catholic teaching.

I grew up suspicious of Santamaria. I think I got it from my father who was a third generation farmer (not a hobby farmer or a Christian community let’s pretend we are peasant farmers farmer) during the Depression. He knew that you could not make a good living on a small block almost anywhere in Australia. And he knew from hard experience that farming is seldom romantic.

So I grew up not liking Santamaria’s rural romanticism. I remained nostalgic for the Middle Ages for a while (I read lots of Chesterton) until I studied history.

Then I read that if you detest someone you should look at then carefully because they might be just like you.

So I read Against the Tide and Mr Santamaria and the Bishops and everything that I could find about Santamaria. And I read News Weekly weekly. What struck me most about News Weekly then AD2000 and the books that came out of the NCC like Rome or the Bush was their mean spiritedness. They were so self-confident that only they knew the truth and so easily smart arsed about anyone that disagreed with.

I think that last sentence is true of a lot of what is going on now in the Church.

But I still think it will fail no matter how good a politician George Pell is and no matter how clever he is at networking and no matter how many of these DLP Catholics in the Liberal party achieve cabinet status because I think that ultimately Australian people have more sense. And the DLP whatever its name is is against the spirit of the times.

I might be wrong but I don’t think so.

Meanwhile these people give the few anti-Catholics that are about ammunition to attack us. While that gives the matyr types among the DLP the jollies I think it is hopeless. They do more damage than any seculararist or individualist. :-(

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Will Pell "fail"?

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, September 10, 2012, 19:10 (257 days ago) @ Enda

Fundamentally George Pell is continuing to try and impose the Santamaria agenda and vision for Catholicism on this nation.

I think this is true and I think he will fail.

I view it slightly differently, Enda. I think Pell has already succeeded at least in controlling the church (and there are interesting parallels between that and Abbott which I'll outline in a minute). The question is what will his "success" render for the institution in this country? My bet is more exiting the pews until he's left with about a 5% remnant church. Whether anybody then calls that "success" is an entirely different question.

The commonality I'd draw between Pell and Abbott and what they both learned from Bob Santamaria is this. Whatever might be said about Santamaria he was a superb politician, in the sense of "manipulator of the numbers", from a position where he was never elected to any parliament and from a position where he never had some large army or cohort of workers. He learned well from the Communists, Trotskyites and Marxists whom he despised — how to manipulate large populations with a small minority of committed disciples. From a totally hopeless position, numbers' wise, at one stage he was dictating major policy positions for this entire nation. Pell and Abbott have similarly learned those same lessons well. David Marr's essay is a major study in this. There must be less than half a dozen of the former DLP Catholics in the Liberal Party but effectively Abbott has controlled the agenda. (By the way Turnbull is a Catholic but not in the DLP-type, Santamaria mould.) It IS a huge skill to be able to do that.

Pell has done the same with the Australian bishops. He's never had broad support amongst the majority of his fellow bishops. With the initial leg-up from JPII though — and by effectively taking control of three of the most wealthy archdiocese — Sydney, Melbourne and defacto support from Perth — he's had an effective veto over the Church. (A bit like the veto exercised by the United Nations Security Council that we see stuffing up the search for a resolution over the Syrian situation at the moment.) Most bishops are simply not "political animals" and they are no match for George Pell in any political contest. They're elevated up through the ranks and honestly do see themselves "toiling in the Lord's vineyard" and see themselves principally as helping their local communities. I sense many of them are almost totally naïve about political manipulation and what is going on at the national and international level.

The saddest thing is that, looking into the future, there is a total dearth of talent — either with any "political skills" remotely approaching George Pell's, or with some "vision" to undo all the damage George Pell (and JPII/BXVI) have wreaked on the Australian Church. This national church, compared to many others in the world, had the good fortune to be left in an extremely good financial, infrastructure and personnel position because of a fortuitous confluence of events in Australia in the 1960s. Even with all those resources, without an "agenda" or "vision" that is somewhere close to the aspirations of the broad mass of the people, or adequate "political skills" in the face of a minority abusing their political skills, the future I think is bleak. Mark Coleridge seems to be viewed at present as the logical successor to Pell (who will retire within about 5 years) but Coleridge might be far worse even than George Pell.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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Will Pell "fail"?

by Jerome @, Monday, September 10, 2012, 21:53 (257 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

I think he has already failed.
I do not personally know anyone who indicates any kind of respect or authority to Pell.
There does not seem to be any sense of hope, inspiration and energy coming from him.

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Will Pell "fail"?

by curlie que @, Monday, September 10, 2012, 22:35 (257 days ago) @ Jerome

I agree Jerome - Pell is a total failure & always has been:-( :cry: :embarrassed: :teeth: :sarcastic: :dontknow: :think: :brokenheart: :wilted: :gaah: He should never have been made a Cardinal. I don't know anyone who has any respect for him. He is LAUGHING STOCK :lol2: :rofl: :rofl: :yes: :yes: :gaah: :gaah: :gaah: :gaah:

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Will Pell flail?

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Tuesday, September 11, 2012, 10:17 (257 days ago) @ curlie que

I wonder at what percentage of practice (or non-practice?) will the narrowers and crushers admit any degree of failure? And will they admit that they might have caused any of the damage?

It put me in mind of one of JC's parables:

Another parable put he forth unto them,saying, the kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:24-30, The King James Version

These yobboes aren't listening. They slash and burn now and root up also the wheat.

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Will Pell flail?

by georgeh @, Tuesday, September 11, 2012, 12:14 (256 days ago) @ Enda

I wouldn't be too hard on them Enda?!
The yobbos of one generation could be the heros of the next one, sometimes?!
Just wondering?!
georgeh

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Will Pell flail?

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Tuesday, September 11, 2012, 18:09 (256 days ago) @ georgeh

Hi George. One of the reasons 'The yobbos of one generation could be the heroes of the next one' is that history is written by the winners. Pius IX, and Pius XII were disasterous popes and Pius X was pretty awful too. Pius X has been canonised, Pius IX has been beatified and Pius XII will be canonised if the present people in charge have their way. Gregory VII, also canonised did great harm to the Church. So it depends what you mean by 'the heroes of the next one.'

It is true some people like Aquinas were all but thrown out when alive and are now seen to be great though poor old Aquinas was seen to be great in the 19th and 20th centuries in ways that nearly destroyed him. Newman is another case of being attacked roundly when alive and then being seen to be enormously important.

The difference is I think who it is who thinks someone is a hero.

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Will Pell flail?

by georgeh @, Tuesday, September 11, 2012, 19:34 (256 days ago) @ Enda

Thanks for that Enda.
I certainly agree about history being written by the winners.
That's one reason why the media pretty well controls most agendas.
Another reason why it's so difficult to get at the "truth"?!
georgeh

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