Why I stay (well sort of stay!). (Main Forum)

Enda, I have a copy of The Dysfunctional Church by Michael Crosby - if you would like a loan of it let me know and I'll post it to you.

Thanks for explaining 'dysfunction' so well. Haven't we all know someone who is dysfunctional who wants to take charge of things much to everyone's dismay and then wonders why things go 'pear shaped'?

I had to leave the dysfunctional church - I could no longer conform to its image - I need to be on the margins, in fact, a Christian without borders suits me fine and for the moment that is where I am.

Thanks again Enda for sharing your story with us.

Marian

who is hoping for a new way to be church

I love the Office when its done in choir

Thanks, Enda, I can go along with almost all of that albeit that some of my names might be a bit different. A couple of other "likes" I'd add to the list are these...

Although it's getting a little embarrassing at the moment, I have long enjoyed being part of this "international family". My dad, back in the 1960s, when he could first afford to travel the world on a few occasions as a tourist used to boast that he could be in almost any city or town in the world and he could find "home" in the Catholic Church. He'd often enveigle his way into serving at Mass in the cities he visited. Mum's "score card" from her travels when she returned was how many famous places they had visited. Dad couldn't give a stuff much about "famous places" — "once you've seen one they're all much the same" would be his attitude. His "score card" was the litany of places around the world where he had served at Mass. Quite apart from that emotional attachment that filtered through to me in some way, I have long been attracted to that intellectual sense of "catholicism being universal" — something that transcended all time and all cultures and all geographic locations. It was something that pointed towards, at the least, some sense of universal human brotherhood and sisterhood.

The other "like" I've had has also been having a sense of belonging to this vast enterprise that, on the surface at least was altruistic and committed to doing so much good in the world. There is still a heck of a lot of that goes on in the world. We have a lot of expatriate readers of Catholica engaging in various kinds of missionary work in the four corners of the world. From emails I've received over the years our conversations and commentaries here keep them in touch with what is going on "back home". I'm genuinely appreciative of that sacrifice so many women and men made in the great teaching orders who lifted us grandchildren of poor, bog-Irish Catholics into a position where we had an equal chance with everybody else in competition for jobs, higher education and public office in a nation like ours.

As I was reading through your list I began thinking about the things I don't like. Numbers wise there are probably not that many. The likes probably far outnumber the dislikes even today. Unfortunately in weight of importance though some of those dislikes today are mighty heavy. The hypocrisy at the top of the hierarchical tree and their inability to acknowledge when they are wrong, or when error in teaching needed to be admitted and corrected, is the greatest that colours everything else. I find myself wondering how much it is this "oath of loyalty" to the Pope that bishops take that is the biggest problem and what pains the consciences of so many of them today? No matter what their conscience might be saying to them about any particular belief or teaching the over-riding constraint they find in their lives is this "oath of loyalty" they've given to the pontiff to support whatever he thinks even if they might personally disagree with it in their own consciences? I suspect today there are many, many bishops who must struggle with their consciences. They're the good people. The "bully boys", described so well by Chris Geraghty in his recent book, well they wouldn't know what a conscience is and this wouldn't be an issue for them at all.

Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

Maybe I am a Catholic without borders.

I have been calling myself that for sometime now - welcome to the borderless Catholic Church where everyone is free to move in and out without having to show their Papal Passport!!

Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ

Thank you Enda for getting us thinking about this topic, and especially for listing the positives as well as the negatives about the Catholic Church. I would "second" just about all the reasons you put forward for staying with the Church, with just a few minor changes (such as my list of favourite saints). Also, like Brian, I love the sense of belonging to an organisation that connects you with so many other people, not only across space but even across time. When I was studying Anthropology at Uni., my tutor told us that the people who make the best anthropologists or sociologists are often those who grew up either as Catholics or Orthodox Jews. People from these backgrounds are able to think in terms of the "whole", and see themsleves as being part of a bigger "whole", whereas people from Protestant or secular backgrounds tend to think of society as being just a collection of individuals. No doubt there are exceptions to that rule, but it certainly was true in my case.

Another thing I like about the Catholic Church is that, at its best, it really is "small-c catholic" and quite tolerant. Well, it does have a terrible history of being intolerant of people outside its own fold, but I mean "tolerant" in the sense of what it tolerates in its own members - except in the area of sexuality of course. I mean, it differs from some other Christian and non-Christian faith traditions in that its members are allowed to smoke, drink, dance, gamble, eat whatever they want, work in practically any profession, use religious icons (pictures, statues, etc) in their religious life or not, and likewise, worship ceremonies can be extremely elaborate or quite simple, and so on. It also seems to be very good at absorbing and adapting to local customs and tastes. At a parish I used to be part of, there was also a very active Spanish community. On Good Friday, they would hold their ceremony straight after ours, so as soon as we finished they would be rushing around getting the church ready, which in their case meant setting vases of flowers all over the church. At first I was astounded by this and thought, how can anyone think that that is appropriate for Good Friday? But then I thought, well, if for them that is the most meaningful way to commemorate and honour the Crucifixion of Jesus, then, why not?

In fact one of my main objections to the "smaller, purer Church" kind of Catholicism that seems to be so predominant today is that, while it claims to be respecting Catholic tradition, it is really doing the opposite, at least in the ways that matter most. I may be wrong about this, but it is certainly my impression.

When other people in this thread used the phrase "Catholics without borders", at first it seemed to me to be a contradiction in terms. If you identified yourself as a Catholic, didn't that imply that you placed yourself within the borders of what it means to be Catholic? Now, I wonder if perhaps being a Catholic without borders is simply to fit in with Catholicism's own best tradition!

Cathy Taggart

I splash in my poetry puddle
and try to keep God amused. - James Broughton

Your post got me thinking: what would it take to get everyone enthused again? Do you think if there had been a succession of JXXIIIs rather than PVI, JPII and BXVI the outcome would have been different?

We were encouraged to be enthused by such programs as Renewal of Faith and a greater participation in the liturgy. I find that this has now been eroded and we are left mumbling in the pews using words that make no sense. That is when I decided to become a Catholic without boarders.

I agree Brian that we are products of a democracy and find it very hard to come to terms with the monarchical approach of Rome. But do you think in all honesty Rome will even begin to think along democratic lines? I doubt it!!

Marian

who is hoping for a new way to be church

A friend heavily involved in the true work of the Church suggested last week that the last thing we need when B16 goes to God is another John XXIII. Instead we need another awful pope so that the Vatican will finally topple over and we can start again.

I don't know if this is true but I can think of nothing else. I can see nothing on the horizon to enthuse me (except the ordinary things like the enthusiasm and beauty of young people and the goodness of most people, and the jonquils that are blooming here).

I was just talking this afternoon to a friend about how we remembered the start of VatII. I was a second year novice in the Christian Brothers and when we were asked by the novice master to pray for the Council I had not the faintest idea what it was. I was seventeen and we had been banned from reading, watching or listening to any media for nearly two years by then (I didn't know about the Cuban missile crisis until about 1968!). I do remember that some cardinal was overjoyed that he had had St Joseph's name included in the Roman canon along with the names of the first popes etc. This was groundbreaking news for us novices. Oh joy! Oh rapture!

But the old community has gone. The old identity has gone. The old trust (childlike or childish as it was!) has gone. Too many good people have seen through the system. The corruption has been exposed.

I don't know how we start again from that. I do know we cannot go back. Insanity is trying something that has failed over and over again in the hope it will work this time. I might be confused but I am not insane.

We need something new, a new reformaton. But I don't know who will lead it or where it will happen.

Meanwhile I am smelling the jonquils (or as a cow I knew used say, "Sometimes you just have to stop and eat the roses!").