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If Mass going and Eucharist ceases to be important for most people... (Main Forum)

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 20:26 (311 days ago)

I had been thinking about this since reading Anthony Ruff's comments on the PrayTell blog [LINK] that Mary drew our attention to earlier even before I came to choose a commentary from John Chuchman today...

What if?

What if the exit out of the pews continues until there are only somewhere between 1 and 5% participating regularly? (My sense is that it is a very real possibility given the evidence of recent decades.) Equally though I sense there is a significant population in the world that still wants to identify as "Catholic", and not purely for tribal or identity reasons.

For as long as I can remember the accepted measure as to whether Catholicism was meeting its objectives was how many people were regularly attending the Eucharist. We are told the Eucharist is "the source and summit of our faith" [Lumen Gentium #11, CCC #1324] but self-evidently it would seem a lot of people remain to be convinced these days — and the numbers who remain to be convinced seem to be growing.

I have a confession to make. I've been thinking about this for quite a few years now. I'm not convinced either! It's a cute slogan but it is a slogan a bit like "the family that prays together stays together". These kind of slogans "roll off the tongue easily" but what do they actually mean; do they contain solid wisdom; or are they just part of our "institutional propaganda"?

On a more positive note I've also been wondering what I would classify as "the source and summit" of my faith, or beliefs? Perhaps it is the Liturgy of the Word? What I think attracts me most to Catholicism and Jesus Christ is not some "magic" that I obtain from swallowing the consecrated host or wine but somehow "integrating into my life" a certain "way" of processing or navigating life. I am no longer enamoured of the literalness of the Gospel stories — the "Oh, Wow, Jesus performed this or that miracle, or defied gravity by 'ascending' into heaven, or walked through walls and walked on water" but I find myself more and more interested in Jesus as some manifestation of this "spirit" that suffuses creation, who is some embodiment of perhaps "Divine wisdom" and certainly "the wisdom of the ages" who provides some sort of compass or guide by which we might navigate the challenges that we find confronting us in our journey's today.

Assume for a moment I am correct in my assessment: how would you measure if you're "on the right track" — or how would you measure if the Community, or the Institution, is "on the right track" in achieving the objective? Is it measured accurately by how many people rock up to church on Sunday? Or does it require some new measuring stick?

Do any of the rest of you have thoughts on this?


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Christianity: a religion whose unique achievement is precisely to demystify the Sacred

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 21:58 (311 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

There is a fascinating, if intellectually challenging and lengthy, essay on the ABC's Religion and Ethics website that might be relevant to all of this. Following the logic of philosopher Jean-Pierre Dupuy, Slavoj Zizek argues:

the radical break introduced by Christianity consists in the fact that it is the first religion without the sacred, a religion whose unique achievement is precisely to demystify the Sacred.

Parts of the essay I find a heavy slog but within it I found some fascinating observations about:

  • The relationship between church and state;
  • Interesting observations about the contest between labour and capital and how it changed over the course of the 20th Century in positive ways, and what was driving this;
  • Some telling observations about religious fundamentalism and where it is likely to lead; as well as
  • These larger questions of why we have religion(s) and what they're trying to achieve.

The full essay can be found at:
http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2012/07/11/3543824.htm?WT.svl=featuredSitesScro...

Slavoj Zizek is the International Director of the Birkbeck Institute for the Humanities, University of London, and one of the world's most influential public intellectuals. His latest book is Less Than Nothing: Hegel and the Shadow of Dialectical Materialism.

Reading this essay led me to links to Jean-Pierre Dupuy and a couple of websites that might be of interest to some Catholica readers:

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If Mass going and Eucharist ceases to be important for most people...

by georgeh @, Sunday, July 15, 2012, 22:40 (311 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Thanks for another challenging Post Brian.
Indeed the RC church places a lot of emphasis on the Mass and the Eucharist.
However one could be mislead about attendences, I feel?!
There may well be more Catholics that do not attend but live by what the Mass and the Eucharist represent?!
Then again it could/ would be very difficult to measure success of the RC church or any other church for that matter?! The most one could arrive at judging is perhaps oneself, and even that could be difficult and/or presumptious, I feel?!
We all long for that third eye/vision I suppose, to help with the answers?!Or for the right questions for that matter?!
Don't know if that makes sense?!
georgeh

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If Mass going and Eucharist ceases to be important for most people...

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, July 16, 2012, 01:08 (311 days ago) @ georgeh

It makes sense in one way, George. In another though I suggest that any organisation in the world needs somem measure to evaluate if it is achieving its objective. Governments and political parties use opinion polls and their relative performance at elections; businesses have the bottom line of their profitability; schools have league tables and measure their performance by whether their students are passing exams; the church has for a long time used this measure of mass attendance or sacramental participation.

I suppose I am arguing two things:

  • One is that people are no longer attending and, at one level that indicates the institution is failing by its traditional measure. What do you do about that?
  • In a parallel argument I'm suggesting this traditional measure is increasingly irrelevant — i.e. while many, many people have given up participating, they still consider themselves "Catholic". Do such people have some different measure today by which they classify themselves as "Catholic"? Or, in my own case – and I'm suggesting/asking if this might be the case for others – we might be looking for some different measuring stick as to their "success" in following or being guided by Jesus than by sacramental participation or mass attendance?

In one sense one could say "who gives a fig about such matters?" In another sense though I thought hierarchs who might still believe in some final judgment or evaluation of their performance might appreciate some "early warning" if their "evangelization" or "re-evangelization" efforts are meeting with any success? :nerd: :nerd: :nerd:


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If Mass going and Eucharist ceases to be important for most people...

by clommer @, United States, Monday, July 16, 2012, 01:26 (311 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Part of the problem or perhaps more accurately the real problem is ignoring scripture and substituting the blatherings of the hierarchy which only justify the existence of the structural church. Jesus said whenever two or more are gathered in my name I will be present. True presence depends on people gathering in Jesus' name not some mumbling of a shaman suited up in a fancy dress incanting Latin or its literal transaltion.

Bread and wine is not transformed by some magical words or flourishes of the presider. Bread andwine is transformed into the body and blood of Christ when it is consumed by the communicant and it is the faith and belief of the communicant that causes the transformation. If you believe it is the Christ then it is and if you do not believe then it remains breadand wine. The adoration of the wafer is in reality a form of idolatry. The rituals and the canon laws were invented by man and as such become rejected when viewed as such. The requirement of attending Sunday mass and the Easter duty and the support of your pastor etcetera have been seen in a clearer light ever since the clergy sexual abuse. Toppled from the pedestal, priests were no longer god-like but really quite human. The laity at last could see things in a different light. Vatican II promised the laity a more meaningful position but the hierarchs did all they could to turn the clock back. Once this transitional period has passed the community will gather together as Jesus suggested in scripture and not as some Vatican plan to enhance their importance and fill their coffers.

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If Mass going and Eucharist ceases to be important for most people...

by Debb @, Monday, July 16, 2012, 06:27 (310 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

I like what Cynthia Bourgeualt says about it all, can't remember where, but the gist of it is: Jesus gave only two commands. One was to love God and neighbour. The other was was, "Do this."

She, as an Episcopalian priest, advises us to find a place, any place, where the Eucharist is celebrated meaningfully. I suppose that could mean any denomination, or any household gathering. Thus is Eucharist disentangled from "Mass".

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This is my body

by TonySee ⌂ @, Adelaide, Monday, July 16, 2012, 06:52 (310 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
edited by TonySee, Monday, July 16, 2012, 17:25

If I had to summarise my response, Brian, I'd say something like 'If you want religion, you have to have community; if you want to have community, you have to have rituals that bind community', or something pithy like that.

I don't think on-line communities are understood yet and should not be underestimated, but in-the-flesh communities are where it's at because we believe in an incarnated, relational God.

I'm not one for waxing theological on the Eucharist, but to me its power is in its deceptive simplicity. It is about what we touch and feel and make -- food and drink that is both the 'work of human hands', the stuff that sustains us and the stuff of relationships. It is about an unbroken connection to the night Jesus 'broke bread' and washed the feet of his disciples and asked us to remember him by it.

It never fails to move me when parishioners volunteer to take part in the washing of the feet ceremony on Easter Thursday night. Part of the reason for that is that is I've been part of that community over time and I know the stories of many, if not all, of those individuals and for some, I've been part of their stories. They bring their joy and sorrow and optimism and despair to that moment. It's real. It's in the flesh.

You can't do this in isolation or on-line. On-line we are dis-embodied. In isolation we don't become a part of the stories of others.


Peace to you
For all that has been — Thanks. For all that shall be — Yes. Dag Hammarskjöld

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This is my body

by petrus2, Urangan, Australia, Monday, July 16, 2012, 07:19 (310 days ago) @ TonySee

Thank you TonySee. Your comment excels in its accuracy and simplicity.

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If Mass going and Eucharist ceases to be important for most people...

by Rayner ⌂ @, Australia, Monday, July 16, 2012, 08:20 (310 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

I often wonder whether in the future, when I am not there anymore to witness it, there will still be the same fervent understanding of what people believe in practice, namely whether this 'sacrifice of the mass' or eucharistic thanksgiving as the heart of the community life will still be as meaningful to as many as in the past.
I have not been to mass for many years now, and I have not missed it - to me it (going to mass) is just like any other religious rituals of all religions, not unlike what a mass of people do by flocking to a common place on Fridays, or going to a pilgrimage in Mecca, WYD etc.
One thing that I feel is going to happen, as it has been shown over the recent decades in the West, is that religions will become more and more a private or personal concern.
The interest to be living religiously for the majority of people has seemed to be decreasing (but then my observation may be wrong, too).
The new Cathedrals of Westernised societies seem to be the markets, places of meeting, work places, places of touristic interests, like the agora of the ancient times, with the M symbols mushrooming in every city and town.

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If Mass going and Eucharist ceases to be important for most people...

by Francis @, Kingsgrove, NSW, Monday, July 16, 2012, 08:58 (310 days ago) @ Rayner

The central focus of our attending with a small group in house church is sharing our application of Scripture to daily events and lives and eating together. Jesus seemed to go in a lot for eating with others and I attend Mass as a synbolic joining of lives through the shared meal of the Eucharist.

Francis


My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.

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If Mass going and Eucharist ceases to be important for most people...

by Ynot @, Monday, July 16, 2012, 09:06 (310 days ago) @ Rayner

I have not been to mass for many years now, and I have not missed it - to me it (going to mass) is just like any other religious rituals of all religions, not unlike what a mass of people do by flocking to a common place on Fridays, or going to a pilgrimage in Mecca, WYD etc.

I can identify with this, Rayner, when I'm thnking in the real, not floating in the feet-off-the-ground realm of faith and spirituality in which I find meaning and inspiration but which is always somewhat airy-fairy.

Which brings me to the question of sociology. Back in the '50s in Rome, seminarians from Oz, USA, England and Ireland used to be fascinated by the way Italians practised their faith. You don't have to be a mathematician to work out that if everyone in a 95% catholic population (I'm guessing at that % figure but I think it will do) were to go to church on the one Sunday, the churches would be packed over and over again all day and then you'd hardly begin. In other words, Italians were all catholic (even the communist voting ones for the most part) and proud of it, and they would cross to the other side of the street to avoid the black-robed priest coming their way, and they had their babies baptised, and they believed everything and a bit more, and the church flourished...

When people in the anglo world talk about mass attendance they are seeing it through the tradition of catholics holding fast against protestantism, and gradually gaining a place in a protestant world in which there was a serious commitment to 'going to church' but not the catholic 'mortal-sin-Sunday-obligation' thing.

I'm pretty sure the whole Latin world is like Italy was then; I imagine the German world would be more inclined to count heads, and the French are different again.

So I guess this leads to the notion that it's time to grow up and get beyond counting those who go to mass as a guide to how well the church is doing. That is, after all, only showing how many are obedient to that commandment of the church: a pretty poor indicator given the numbers who kept well to the back and very rarely or never approached the altar rails back in those days.

Liturgy may be called 'summit and source' but again, it's only that. It's is not the whole life experience of following Christ. I didn't get to listent o all of the Compass program last night, but I think early on I caught the bishop saying: "The church has to stop worrying about itself and start caring for people in their needs." If my quote is right, I reckon he is right on the metal. Preservation/conservation is for mummies and other crumbling relics of past glories. Jesus said: Go out...

tony


'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'

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Francis, may I ask after Mary, please? nt

by Bill Dowsley @, 'Wombeyan, NSW', Monday, July 16, 2012, 09:17 (310 days ago) @ Ynot

nt

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Francis, may I ask after Mary, please? nt

by Francis @, Kingsgrove, NSW, Monday, July 16, 2012, 20:17 (310 days ago) @ Bill Dowsley

Bill, Mary has left hospital after 14 days and is well though dizziness is still a problem. The hospital never really solved what caused the collapse.

Thanks, Bill for your concern.

Francis with love to you both.


My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.

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One place where the church is growing, but for how much longer?

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, July 16, 2012, 10:05 (310 days ago) @ Ynot

Thanks for that, Tony. I was going to add another post with the observation that even though Mass and Sacrament participation figures have plummeted in Australia the one area in which the Church seems to be growing is in the education sector. People might not attend the Eucharist very often but there is still considerable attraction it seems in having their children educated in Catholic schools — and young adults, in respectable numbers, are still attracted to attending the few Catholic universities we have in this country. How long that will last if George Pell and the taliban elements within the institution continue to impose their "ethos" on the role of Catholic schools and universities, might be a mute point. My own sense is that if George Pell and Co continue to hold sway then eventually school and university participation rates will also eventually decline and the education sector in Catholicism will also eventually shrink as well to mimic what has been happening in the sacramental participation rate. It might take a few generations so I don't see it as any immediate threat. Our own anecdotal observation is that many of the young people we are in touch with who were educated in Catholic schools are going to be less inclined to educate their children in Catholic schools than our generations were.


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If Mass going and Eucharist ceases to be important for most people...

by georgeh @, Monday, July 16, 2012, 11:26 (310 days ago) @ Ynot

Thanks for that tony.
Whilst people have personal beliefs, usually they like to feel that they're not alone.So we like to gether in solidarity whether in christian or pagan rituals-rallies for leaders and countries ie nationalism-rallies for sports-rallies for performing artists etc, or just shopping malls as per Brian's post below?!
So christians have their rallies dating from Palm Sunday or so?!For R Catholics it's been the Mass?!
georgeh

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Thanks for your responses. Some further observations/questions to those responses...

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, July 16, 2012, 09:28 (310 days ago) @ Rayner

Thanks for the responses. I have no doubt whatsoever that liturgy and ritual continues to be important to people — as well as some type of "communing" in physical space. I don't have any sense that cyberspace is going to replace physical space. What does seem to be changing is the where and how people do their communing as you suggest, Rayner. The Australian sociologist, John Carroll, (who I recently saw on television as one of the commentators on John Clarke's "This Sporting Nation") made the observation back in about 1984 in an article in Quadrant Magazine that the Westfield-like shopping malls and plazas would be "The Cathedrals of the 21st Century". I thought it a brilliant observation back then, and still do now. The modern shopping mall fulfils some deep need in the human psyche that centuries ago was met by the large cathedrals of the world. They are far more than simply "hubs for commercial activity" but seem to fulfil some deep "spiritual role" for many people as well — perhaps replacing the "spiritual role" once played by "going to church".

My own question was not so much seeking responses trying to defend the Eucharist and our traditional understanding of the role it performed/performs in people's lives. I was asking if people are abandoning participation in the Eucharist — which has also performed another role as a measure as to how "successful" the church has been in fulfilling its Christ-given mission — what new measure might replace it?

Like yourselves, Tony and Debb, I think the invention of the Eucharist, considered purely from the point of view of it being a communication device and "point of focus", was brilliant and a stroke of genius on the part of Jesus. As I've suggested in the past, put yourself back in that Upper Room. Here is Jesus with a "message" that he wants to be remembered down through all time in all cultures. He doesn't have access to printing presses, television stations or the world wide web. He's meeting there for a meal with a few people, 12 at least, a few dozen at the most. Even the "theatrical props" he has are more than probably pretty minimal compared to the "props" one might find in any modern home. He grabs a cup of wine and some bread — two of the most basic and widely accessible human manufactures to be found anywhere and transforms them into a "powerful symbol" that, in many ways, and despite the massive fall off in participation in recent times, have been more powerful than any internet or Murdoch-like media empire. Is that not stuff in "miracle territory" — a "touch of communication genius"?

My own sense is that the human heart and soul crave both symbol and a sense of "communio" — some expression of communal solidarity with the Spirit. If the Church is no longer able or willing to provide that people will go and find it elsewhere. And that seems to be what is happening. What does the Church do about that? What do we do about that? In my last question I'm not so much asking what do we do about that as "church" but as individuals and as communities who, if I'm correct in my base observation, crave both symbol and communio?


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Another response

by Jerome345, Monday, July 16, 2012, 13:37 (310 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Sorry Brian and All, I didn't see this string until after I posted above on The True Meaning of Eucharist. I have to confess to bridling at the idea of the Eucharist being "invented". To speak of Jesus devising the Eucharist as a means of creating a mere memorial of his ministry seems to devalue it in some way. For me the Eucharist is no mere human invention, nor simply an exercise in organisation restructuring. The Eucharist is “revealed” or “gifted” to us by God as the source and summit of our communion, not just with each other, but with the divine.

In Celtic (Christian) Spirituality, the Eucharist is seen as one of those “thin places”, where the light of the divine sneaks into the darkness of the created order from under the door separating it from the uncreated order. Eternity captured momentarily in a deceptively-simple ritual. The Eucharist is a source of enlightenment and strength that transcends the here and now and unites past, present and future.

It is when former devotees forget the magnificence of the Eucharist that they tend to leave and seek other sources of communion with the divine (or some poor facsimile). I think we need a reinvigoration of our Eucharistic theology – a goal which I think lies behind the recent initiative to reform and translate afresh the Roman missal.

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Another response

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, July 16, 2012, 16:08 (310 days ago) @ Jerome345

I think we need a reinvigoration of our Eucharistic theology – a goal which I think lies behind the recent initiative to reform and translate afresh the Roman missal.

I think you're a friggin' optimist, Jerome, if you think these changes to the Missale Romanum are going to re-invigorate the Eucharist and bring people flocking back in the doors to see what they've been missing.

As I wrote in my original post — and completely leaving aside any "Divine origins" of the Eucharist — I see it as a stroke of "communication genius" that beats anything anybody else has come up with in the 2000 years since. For some reason it has self-evidently lost some (or a lot) of its appeal or power. I am honestly in two minds as to whether too much damage has been done — and I again specifically draw attention to what Brian Pitts and Geoffrey Robinson write in today's lead commentary — or whether the necessary steps can be taken to reinvest it with the power or appeal it once had. What I am more certain of is that we human beings crave spiritual symbols and liturgy. As I've written elsewhere though it does have to "come from, and speak to, the heart of the ordinary person". It is not something that can be imposed by some high priesthood. As might be read between the lines from what Brian Pitts and Geoff Robinson write today it might be able to be skuttled by a high priesthood as a powerful symbol and communication device. It could be argued that IS what has happened as reflected by this historically unprecedented exit out of the pews by ordinary people.


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And another response - liturgy in the old days wasn't much good either.

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Monday, July 16, 2012, 16:21 (310 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

The things Jerome wrote prompted this...

Until I was fifteen I went to Mass every Sunday and Holy Day. My mother used tell anyone willing to listen that she always took me to Mass from the first Sunday after she came home from hospital with me and that I never mucked up once. On the strength of that I expect they are just waiting for me to die to open my cause for canonisation.

Whether I mucked up or not I did go to Mass regularly because it was a mortal sin to miss.
Once I became an altar boy aged about nine I went even more often and at the urging of the brothers I did the Nine First Fridays year after year. While I have not done the Nine First Fridays lately I presume the ones I did every year until I was thirty two must be recorded somewhere in heaven and surely the promise will be honoured when I die, that is that I will be rescued from Purgatory on the first Friday after my death. As I also did the Nine First Saturdays for seventeen years I expect that if I die on a Friday night I will be rescued from Purgatory promptly the next morning rather than waiting for a Friday.

I cannot remember when I first heard the word liturgy. I expect it was in 1960 when I was a child in the Brothers’ juniorate. Before that there were only the Mass, or the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, or the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and there was Benediction which wasn’t the Mass we were often reminded, though it was nearly always more interesting because we took part by singing and there were flowers, candles and incense.

Benediction took place every Friday for all the Catholic school kids in our country town parish and also on Wednesday and Sunday evenings and s part of the Novena of Our Lady of Perpetual Succour on Saturday nights. The Friday at midday school kids’ version was preceded by a talk from one of the four priests in our parish, all Irishmen. I cannot remember one thing they said in my eleven years there but I can remember benediction and the occasional event like the day one of the altar boys caught fire trying to light the tall candles while his unwatched surplice sleeve dangled into the low lighted candles. He was quickly put out and order was restored. Another time Sister Loyola had piled vase after vase filled with gladioli on every available flat space on the altar (it must have been a BIG feast day) and someone didn’t close the sacristy door properly and a gust of wind brought the whole lot cascading onto the sanctuary.

When old Catholics like me talk about ‘the good old days’ I think this is what they mean and they are right. Nothing like that happens now and more is the pity. It kept us awake.

Mass though well attended was pretty awful. We were always being told “It’s the Mass that matters” and threatened with eternal punishment if we didn’t go but it was not very exciting when you got there. When I was fourteen it picked up a bit because I could watch some of the convent girls coming back from communion but that wasn’t enough to make the whole thing work.

And the Mass was often badly said. Some priests were good at Latin pronunciation and had clear voices and if you were not asleep you could hear them even if you could not follow them. Some priests were simply atrocious. Father O’Whatsis from the nearby parish used turn up at our church now and then. He said Mass in eleven minutes in his high whining voice. He’d spin around and screech “Domernis verbiskeeeerm” and by the time the altar boy tried to answer he’d be several prayers away.

Of course, Mass being in Latin and almost all silent most people there either read it in their missals or said the rosary or read from other prayer books like The Garden of the Soul or The Perpetual Novena to St Philomena. There would be the mumble of the priest up the front and the Psssssssp, psssssssp of the old ladies saying their rosary with the occasional simple soul who could not read silently reading his or her prayers out nearly loud.

About 1966 guitar hymns came in. Most religion teachers my age can still play a few chords on the guitar from then when we taught the kids the latest hymns. Some of these hymns gave banality a bad name. They were much, much worse than banal: rubbish like ‘Sons of God hear his holy word’, ‘When will I ever be me?’ and ‘Joy is like the rain.’

But they were no worse than many of the hymns we were made to sing in the 1940s and 1950s: wretched things like ‘Bring flowers of the fairest’, ‘Oh mother I could weep for mirth’, ‘Daily daily sing to Mary’, ‘Sweet sacrament Divine’, ‘Mother of Perpetual Succour with your eyes so sadly sweet’, ‘Pure as Carmel’s snows and lovely’, and ‘Oh purest of creatures’.

‘Faith of our fathers’ was awful too, not so much a hymn as a football song that pretended we were all Irish and would be happy if England was beaten at everything forever. There was also ‘Hail glorious St Patrick dear saint of our isle’ sung by us children as if we were in Erin’s green valleys instead of where we really were, on the drought ridden leeward slopes of Australia’s Great Dividing Range.

Some of you might think I am going on a bit. And maybe I am. I am doing it because some people want us to believe that once upon a time before the Vatican Council we had good liturgy in Australia and it simply is not true.

We did have good liturgy for a few years, in a few places, if you were enormously lucky. But it didn’t begin until about 1960. And as I said you had to be lucky.

I was. Aged fifteen I came to the Christian Brothers’ Training College at Strathfield and there between musicians like Colin Smith, and hymn writers like James McAuley, Richard Connolly, Joseph Gelineau and others and good liturgists like Ron Hyne, Cornelius Van Der Geist, Neil Collins and others and the Living Parish Group and the Society of St Pius X (amazing to think that a group of real radicals would call themselves that!) I got to the stage where I used look forward to Sunday Mass, or Sunday Eucharists as we were beginning to call it by then.

Why did I want to go to Mass?

Because we were learning good music, we were all involved in good singing that we could reach with our voices and because it was all good theology or good scripture, the psalms especially. And because the priests prepared their homilies and they were based on the readings of the day and I went away feeling I had learnt something or been encouraged to live a better Christian life or something like that. I felt I was becoming a Catholic adult in an adult Church.

It wasn’t only the Christian Brothers obviously. I wasn’t in any of the other places but as I got older I ran into many Catholics who had had a similar experience somewhere; it was happening in pockets across Australia.

Meanwhile bad liturgy carried on apace.

Why? Because some priests no matter what they are supposed to be doing are not good at liturgy. Some could be better if they involved their parish and used their talents but some of the men who are not good at liturgy are also threatened by people who are talented.

I think the main skill in leadership is being able to make use of the talent you have available and poor leaders are in a double bind, they can’t do it themselves and they can’t ask.

Some bad liturgy was because some people were beyond change. Men who had survived in the old system couldn’t survive in the new. It came too late or it destroyed what they had learnt. Some people jus resisted. There were usually parishes that accommodated them and they gradually died out. That always happens around major change.

AND society changed.

This is the major variable in all this. The world that 1950s Catholicism thrived in or made do in simply vanished. It’s all over Red Rover. There are so many things that changed in the Church and so many things that changed in Australian society.

The main theological change I’d guess (Someone out there will argue with this) is that most of us no longer believe in a God who demands sacrifice of us and so the Mass is now the Eucharist for most of us and is not the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Another major change is that for many of us the theology of ministry has changed.

This needs unwrapping but I suspect many of us do not think of priesthood as the best model because priests are about sacrifice rather than Eucharistic Ministry (again some will argue with this).

Enough from me!

I think we need a thorough going discussion of Eucharist and liturgy. I am glad this discussion began. Thanks all. I look forward to what you have to say.

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"When I was fourteen it picked up a bit because I could watch some of the convent girls..

by Bill Dowsley @, 'Wombeyan, NSW', Monday, July 16, 2012, 16:40 (310 days ago) @ Enda

........coming back from Communion."

Great days, Enda. Thanks.

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And another response - liturgy in the old days wasn't much good either.

by judith, Walloon Australia, Monday, July 16, 2012, 16:42 (310 days ago) @ Enda

I have quite a few experiences in common with you, Enda, though not in a seminary. I lived at Villa Maria, an Aged Care Centre which took a few girls in Brisbane and the nuns did Perpetual Adoration. The Masses there, sadly, were boring. Our parish was even worse, with an elderly priest who favoured Latin and didn't stop saying Latin Masses (on weekdays for the faithful few) till he was practically ordered to do so.

I first encountered really meaningful Mass/Eucharist when I joined Emmanuel Covenant community at a time when our Spiritual Director was the late Father Bill Murphy who had been at Vatican II and he taught us very well, along with quite a few asides about church history, clerical "behaviour" etc which may have started me thinking about just how valid is the notion of infallibility etc. Can't blame Father Bill for my present state, but he was a great teacher and his Masses were celebrations in the best sense.

Sadly, I am now back in my original parish with good priests struggling with the Mess although both are good readers and more than competent speakers. At present I am not gaining much more than attendance credits for being there but I keep going, hoping that a breakthrough will come, in me if not in the situation.


J A Holznagel

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Response to John Chuchman from Tom Draney in NY...

by Letter to the Editor @, Wednesday, July 18, 2012, 02:19 (308 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Returning Eucharist to a Meal...

It is always a mistake to think that there is only one purpose for anything. We eat for nourishment, for enjoyment, for socialability at times, etc. The over-arching purpose of the Eucharist is, in my opinion, to experience God — in prayer, through ritual, with and in community, etc. The experiencing of God is the final purpose of all religion. What distinquishes us from many other believers is the Eucharist, and the great frustration I feel is that few seem to see as I do that the way to renew the church is to return to the Eucharist as a meal. We beg for a hearing or we wave our banners and fulminate at the hierarchy for their treatment of the nuns, but the most effective thing that the sisters and we can do is to sit around a table and celebrate Eucharist. That says in action that recognizing that the priesthood is given in baptism, and ordination is merely conveying of more authority by the community to preside over the larger group. It is time to tell the pope that his grandest title is — and of course it is better in Latin — Servus Servorum Dei.

Tom Draney CFC

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