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Beyond Belief: The Sexual Abuse Crisis by David Yallop (Main Forum)

by desi @, Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 18:36 (319 days ago)
edited by desi, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 21:00

Below is a direct link to the (draft) book which Helen directed us to in another thread.

I have begun to read it and IMO it could be one of the most important contributions to the CSA situation.

http://www.elephantsinthelivingroom.com/Beyond_Belief.doc

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from 'Elephants in the living room'

by Helen @, The other side of Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 17:26 (319 days ago) @ desi

http://www.elephantsinthelivingroom.com/

A couple of articles that may be of interest. The first by Paul Lakeland and the second a draft of 'Beyond Belief' by Geoffrey Robinson.


Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ

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from 'Elephants in the living room'

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 18:14 (319 days ago) @ Helen

Helen, you are a gem in finding these things. The problem we all face these days is that the volume of worthwhile reading material coming out each week is simply overwhelming. I have a reading list, and increasingly a "watching list" of audio visual material, piled so high now that I am sure if I began reading full time right now I'd still not be through it by the end of my lifetime.

These two documents by Bishop Geoff Robinson and Paul Lakeland would appear to be priorities as lengthy as they both are. Thank you for the service you provide to all of us. It is deeply appreciated.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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from 'Elephants in the living room'

by Helen @, The other side of Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 18:30 (319 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Gosh, Brian I 'is blushing'. But as I am administrator to 'Cyber Christian Community' I surf the net for reading material and so I like to share it with Catholica as well.

By the way, I was going to add, read page 4 of Geoffrey Robinson's article - he blows the whole secrecy thing wide open!!


Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ

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from 'Elephants in the living room'

by desi @, Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 18:43 (319 days ago) @ Helen
edited by desi, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 21:05

Brilliant, Helen, I took the liberty of posting a thread with a direct link to the book as I thought that it was that important.

(I did give you a mention ;-), only because you deserve it!).

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from 'Elephants in the living room'

by Milly ⌂ @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 19:26 (319 days ago) @ desi

I've just saved it (and several other articles from the Elephant site) as pdfs and put them on my kindle for future reading.

Thanks for the heads up, Helen - you're an absolute treasure!
Milly :-D


Musica delenit bestiam feram.

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from 'Elephants in the living room'...thanks Milly!

by desi @, Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 20:05 (319 days ago) @ Milly

I'd no idea that I could transfer it onto my Kindle!

I did a quick Google search, followed the instructions and, lo and behold, it's now there waiting.

Brilliant.


PS In case anyone else would like to do it:


1.) On your PC, go to the Kindle area of the Amazon website, log in and select 'My Kindle' from the menu bar. You will see the details of your Kindle account. Look at the first item 'Your Kindle' and make an exact note (or select and copy) of the email address Kindle have allocated your machine. It will look something like "Lynne.Barnes@kindle.com" Whatever it is, we will use this in step 3.

2.) Still in the Manage Your Kindle page on Amazon, a bit further down the page is an area called 'Your Kindle Approved email List'. Make sure you add your own personal home email address (from which you'll be sending your email) to this feature to ensure the email you are about to send is accepted by Amazon. This feature also ensures you don't get spammed.

3.) Go to your email client (Outlook Express or whatever you use for email) and put the address allocated to your Kindle (from step 1) in your address book for future reference, BUT when you enter it, add the word 'free' between the @ sign and kindle so it now looks like "Lynne.Barnes@free.kindle.com"

4.) Send an email to this address, with no body text. In the title bar put the word 'convert' without the parenthesis. Then attach your word document to the email. And send.

Your word document will go to the Amazon Kindle server and be automatically converted to a kindle format and in no time at all will be ready to automatically download to the home page of your Kindle.

5) Switch on the kindle, turn its wi-fi on, and watch the document appear in the Home page.

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from 'Elephants in the living room'...thanks Milly!

by Angela @, Newcastle NSW, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 20:12 (319 days ago) @ desi

Thanks Desi...

I had just worked out that it was too hard..
now to print out your instructions and follow carefully.. may wait till morning as so weary after socialising at family do this afternoon would proably press all the wrong buttons.

Regards Angela


"Lucerna Pedibus Meis"

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from 'Elephants in the living room'...thanks Milly!

by Milly ⌂ @, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 07:00 (318 days ago) @ Angela

Actually, I did it much easier than that....

I simply highlighted the text on the site and copied it into a Word document...then saved it as a pdf.

Then I went to my finder (I'm on a Mac) and copied the pdf straight onto my kindle. Easy peasy!

Hope you get it, Angela. :-D


Musica delenit bestiam feram.

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It worked HOWEVER

by Angela @, Newcastle NSW, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 12:26 (318 days ago) @ Milly

To all IT slow people like me...

When given the option after you initially click...

Click the download button rather than the open button...

Sure helps.

One article down now to try the other Milly's easy way lol

Angela


who has a first class relic of St John Bosco complete with paperwork and fancy red seals... may make a quid or two for Catholica if we can get someone to oragnise a national tour..


NB
Just joking folks am sure there is a canon law disallowing such money making schemes


"Lucerna Pedibus Meis"

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from 'Elephants in the living room' can't get link

by Debb @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 19:59 (319 days ago) @ Helen

I don't know why, but when I click on the link I just get a blank page. Is it because I am using a Mac?

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from 'Elephants in the living room' Now got link

by Debb @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 20:05 (319 days ago) @ Debb

Sorry for previous post. It has now downloaded as a word document. :-)

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from 'Elephants in the living room'

by Helen @, The other side of Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 20:50 (319 days ago) @ Helen

http://www.yallop.com/beyondbelief.aspx

Wearing belt and braces here - but the article as mentioned in the link started by desi, is by David Yallop and not by Bishop Geoffrey Robinson.


Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ

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Beyond Belief: The Sexual Abuse Crisis NOT by Bishop Geoffrey Robinson?

by AnnieJ @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 19:04 (319 days ago) @ desi

There seems to be some confusion about the author of this work.

At the end, on page 50, it states,
'Adapted from The power and the Glory: Inside the Dark Heart of John Paul II's Vatican, by David Yallop, Carroll and Graf Publishers, ... 2007.'

Bishop Robinson is mentioned a cuple of times, but does not seem to be the author.

Perhpas the website has got it wrong?

Annie

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Beyond Belief: The Sexual Abuse Crisis NOT by Bishop Geoffrey Robinson?

by Helen @, The other side of Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 19:11 (319 days ago) @ AnnieJ

I agree Annie, it does appear not to be written by GR but then again it doesn't actually say who wrote it and why it is in draft form.

Still, even if you read the first page, page 4 and page 51 you get the picture and who has been responsible for the cover up.


Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ

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Beyond Belief: The Sexual Abuse Crisis NOT by Bishop Geoffrey Robinson?

by AnnieJ @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 21:46 (319 days ago) @ Helen

It looks like a pre-publication draft of a chapter or chapters of Yallop's book Beyond Belief, published in 2007.

Probably circulated to a few people for comment etc. before publication.

It's certainly a graphic history of CSA in the RCC over the centuries, as well as recent decades. :-( :-(

Annie

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It IS by David Yallop - a rather large glitch by EITR!!

by Helen @, The other side of Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 20:48 (319 days ago) @ AnnieJ

http://www.yallop.com/beyondbelief.aspx


Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ

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It IS by David Yallop - a rather large glitch by EITR!!

by desi @, Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 21:03 (319 days ago) @ Helen

Thanks for that Helen, I have edited the 'Subject' line in my posts.

David Yallop wrote 'In God's Name' (an investigation into the suspicious death of JPI), it was brilliant.

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Beyond Belief: The Sexual Abuse Crisis by David Yallop

by desi @, Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 19:04 (319 days ago) @ desi
edited by desi, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 20:59

The opening two paragraphs.

According to John Paul II and many of his bishops, modern society is to blame for the epidemic of sexual abuse by priests, monks, brothers and nuns of victims ranging from young boys and girls to handicapped adolescents, religious and lay women. But modern society is a catch-all phrase, which means everything and nothing. When Karol Wojtyla was elected pope in October 1978, alongside the financial corruption of the Vatican Bank, was the rampant moral corruption of sexual abuse within the priesthood. Over the previous 1800 years the secret system had evolved that had not eliminated the problem of sexual abuse, but covered it up. Its efficiency can be gauged from the fact that before the Gauthe case in 1985-86, public allegations of sexual abuse by priests were very rare. The exposure of a priest either in criminal or civil proceedings was simply unheard of.

The Roman Catholic Church looked after its own, and offending clerics could not be brought before civil courts unless special permission was obtained to do so. The system was one that clearly had the full approval of Pope John Paul II. In 1983, after twenty-four years of deliberation, the current Code of Canon Law was published, and among the many changes from the previous 1917 Code, Law 119 covering the need for special permission was removed. It was a decision that many of the Catholic hierarchy have since bitterly regretted. In less than two years, the floodgates had opened. Within a decade, the cost of sexual abuse to the Roman Catholic Church at every level was devastating. In the United States alone, since 1984, the financial cost in legal fees and awards to the sexually abused is in excess of $1 billion. The cost to the image and reputation of the Catholic hierarchy is inestimable.

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Beyond Belief: The Sexual Abuse Crisis by Bishop Geoffrey Robinson

by Helen @, The other side of Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 19:19 (319 days ago) @ desi

It is a truly horrible revelation of what went on - it makes disgusting reading. Horrifying as well is the brutal treatment of children in homes - we know this from Ann Free Spirit - and it was world wide.

How can the Church now get back to spreading the Gospel when there have been so many people abused, the effect this has on their family and then those of us who now have been made aware of it.


Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ

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I've just finished reading it.

by Milly ⌂ @, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 01:48 (318 days ago) @ desi

I've just finished reading this excerpt from the book "Beyond Belief" and there were so many things I could have highlighted...in the end, I would just urge everyone to read the whole thing.

Two parts of the conclusion merit a mention:

By the failure not only of Pope John Paul II and his successor, but also by virtually the entire Catholic hierarchy to confront the issue of sexual abuse within the clergy, the Catholic Church has abdicated any historic rights it has previously claimed to speak to her laity on the issues of faith and morals. To abuse a child, to violate an innocent, is for the vast majority an act beyond belief. For a member of the priesthood or a religious order to abuse a child, an adolescent or adult is the ultimate betrayal of trust. The damage may be eventually sublimated, but it is permanent. Clerical sex abuse is a total attack on the body, mind and soul of the victim. It combines physical pain, mental anguish, and emotional and spiritual rape,

and

Recently, a Rome-base prelate observed, “There will not be, either in the short or medium term, a policy of zero tolerance with regard to sex abusers. If such a policy existed and was applied across the board, there are many bishops who would be forced to resign … many cardinals who would have to take early retirement… As for zero tolerance towards homosexuals, we already have that. It just happens to be confined to the laity. If it were applied to the priesthood, its infrastructure would collapse.”

Keep in mind that this was published back in 2007. Sadly, things only seem to have gotten worse.

I feel sick to the stomach...much like I did after spending many hours reading the Grand Jury report on the cases in Philadelphia when they were released, and like I did when I finished reading Chrissie Foster's book "Hell on the way to heaven".

I need a shower.


Musica delenit bestiam feram.

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I've just finished reading it.

by kaythegardener, OREGON, USA, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 07:47 (318 days ago) @ Milly

If the doctors say, "Your tests show a huge growth pressing on vital organs. It wasn't there 3 months ago on previous scans. We'll need to operate tonight..."
What patients in their right minds would say," Oh, that's just your opinion, I (medically untrained) will ignore it until next year or more"??
The current leadership of the RCC sounds just like those sick people who would rather definitely die than take a chance at living, just because it isn't the life script that they have imagined for themselves & they won't have total control over the outcome...:-(

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I've just finished reading it.

by judith, Walloon Australia, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 08:21 (318 days ago) @ Milly

After reading "Hell on the way ot Heaven" I also read "Panic Child" by Carol D. Levine. After a dismal and dangerous childhood, she was taken from the footpath and raped, and details the effects it had on her, and still has. For a child to have to live with the horror of attack is bad enough, but to lack support from those closest to her must be life-threatening.

How many lives of clerical abuse victims are similarly endangered because they are too afraid or ashamed to speak out immediately the offence occurs? If children could be taught that NO adult or other child has the right to access their bodies and minds without free consent (and children can't give this), then we may be able to help earlier.

I will read the "Beyond Belief" piece later today as I don't have the stomach to tackle it yet.


J A Holznagel

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Why the institutional leadership cannot rely on the excuse "we did not know"...

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 10:55 (318 days ago) @ desi

There is a valuable segment in David Yallop's book which answers the response some church leaders have used that "we didn't know". Given the figures quoted in the study by Fr. Eugene Kennedy and Victor Heckler in the first paragraph, might we ask what the percentages might be in the higher ranks of the institution? How many have been promoted according to The Peter Principle, above their level of competence? Here is the section in full...

-----What follows is a quote from David Yallop's "Beyond Belief"-----

As of the mid-1990s, the time of the Fr. Gauthe case, the Church had access to abundant studies of the origins and effects of clerical sexual abuse. One was The Catholic Priest in the United States: Psychological Investigations by Fr. Eugene Kennedy and Victor Heckler. The authors concluded that seven percent of priests were emotionally developed, eighteen percent developing, and sixty-six percent underdeveloped, and eight percent maldeveloped. The extraordinarily high percentages indicating emotional immaturity are illuminating. The personal profile of the immature reminds me vividly of the description of psychopaths by Sir David Henderson to the Royal Commission on Capital Punishment in the early 1950s:

"They are dangerous and frustrated. They are devoid of affection, are cold, heartless, callous, cynical, and show a lack of judgment and forethought, which is almost beyond belief. They may be adult in years, but emotionally, they remain as dangerous children whose conduct may revert to a primitive, sub-human level."

Fr. Kennedy's study had been commissioned by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in the late 1960s. It was delivered to them in 1971. It would have been an invaluable aid towards understanding the mind of the sexually abusing priest, particularly those priests who abused young children and adolescents. However, the bishops did not even discuss the questions raised in the report, let alone implement any of its suggestions. They simply ignored their own report.

The Church could also have consulted the centers for the care of problematic priests run by the Servants of the Paraclete, the first of which was opened in Jemez Spring in New Mexico in 1949. It also included the records of the Seton Psychiatric Institute, a Catholic-owned and Catholic-operated hospital in Baltimore, MD, established in 1844. Fr. Richard Sipe worked at Seton from 1967 to 1970. He was a professed a Benedictine monk in 1953 and ordained a Roman Catholic priest in 1959. He is also a qualified psychotherapist and psychiatrist. He recalled,

"Shortly after I was ordained in 1959, I was assigned as a teacher and counselor at a parish high school. This was my first introduction to parish life and the secret world of sexual activity on the part of Catholic priests and religious with both minors and adults. I also became aware of the secret system."

It was this revelation that prompted Fr. Sipe's interest in counseling Catholic priests and religious. It was to become a life's work. He revealed to me that Seton had kept records all the way back to 1917, many of which include priestly sexual abuse cases:

"[Case of clerical sexual abuse] was frequently masked by fellow priests working in the clinic ... deep depression, or 'his activities have led to heavy drinking,' but sexual abuse was the fundamental problem. By the time I came to work there in the late sixties, virtually all referrals to Seton were for priests and religious for sexual contact involving minors. The referral was a device used by the Church to avoid public exposure or court action."

Fr. Sipe then continued to confine the extent of the problem and his response to such cases:

I collaborated with colleagues from many countries who were working inn the same field – The Netherlands, Ireland, England, Australia, India and Africa, Canada, Spain, much of the Third World. It's global."

He also put paid to the lie that the bishops could not have known the extent of clerical abuse. Not only was data, the information, the records on clerical sexual abuse at the various other clinics and hospitals available to any bishop who wished to be informed on pedophilia, Fr. Sipe also stated that the bishops "were fully acquainted anyway."

There was certainly no reason for the Church to be shocked or ignorant about clerical sexual abuse when the Gauthe case erupted in 1985. Apart from the sources already mentioned, the Church could have read legal articles on clergy malpractice, or consulted reference books, such as the The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which defined pedophilia as follows:

  • The act or fantasy of engaging in sexual activity with pre-pubertal children as a repeatedly preferred or exclusive method of achieving sexual excitement.
  • If the individual is an adult, the pre-pubertal children are at least ten years younger than the individual. If the individual is a late adolescent, no precise age difference is required, and clinical judgment must take into account the age difference as well as the sexual maturity of the child.

In the United Kingdom, Bishop Murphy O'Connor could have referred to Child Abuse and Neglect, a study of prevalence in Great Britain, or at least twelve other studies that were all in print at the time he was ignoring advice and protecting a pedophile. Better still, he could have contacted the Servants of the Paraclete in Gloucestershire, an organization with over thirty years' experience in the treatment of pedophiles – where he himself had sent the serial pedophile, Fr. Hill. Instead, the wretched Fr. Hill was given carte blanche by the man who sits today at the head of the Roman Catholic Church in England.

The Vatican was fully aware of many of these studies. In 1971, for example, it invited Dr. Conrad Baars and Dr. Anna Terruwe to present their paper dealing with the causes, treatment and prevention of emotional immaturity and illness in priests to a meeting sponsored by the Synod of Bishops. Among those listening in the audience was Cardinal Wojtyla, who was elected to the Synod council at the end of that Synod. Dr. Baars' report as based on the medical records and files of 1,500 priests treated for mental problems. A Dutch born Catholic psychiatrist, Dr. Bars concluded that less than fifteen percent of priests in Western Europe and North America were emotionally fully developed. Twenty to twenty-five percent had serious psychiatric difficulties that often resulted in alcoholism, and sixty to seventy percent suffered from lesser degrees of emotional immaturity. The report made ten recommendations, including a more effective vetting of potential priests. None were implemented.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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Being reduced to a state of Disbelief...

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 11:24 (318 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

I find myself thinking as I come to the conclusion of the paper from David Yallop that, if there were two books or articles I'd like every bishop in the world to read in order for them to gain some insight into why so many mature people have given up on the Church, the two I would choose would be Chrissie Foster's "Hell on the Way to Heaven" and this article, "Beyond Belief", by David Yallop.

What Yallop writes truly is "Beyond Belief"!

As we read so often in places like Catholica many have come to the conclusion that the bishops simply "do not get it". When I read those statistics from the Eugene Kennedy/Victor Heckler study...

The authors concluded that seven percent of priests were emotionally developed, eighteen percent developing, and sixty-six percent underdeveloped, and eight percent maldeveloped. The extraordinarily high percentages indicating emotional immaturity are illuminating.

...I find myself asking: what would be the percentages today if a similar study were undertaken now? Has there been any significant improvement in the last four decades? How many in the last two categories have been promoted to positions where they can wear miters?

We have an institution in serious meltdown. It is in a crisis as severe as that experienced at the Reformation or at the time of the Great Schism between East and West a thousand years ago. The clerical abuse crisis is not the root cause of the crisis but is a symptom of something much deeper — I have suggested bedded right down at the most fundamental level of what the very objective of Catholicism actually is. Until those at the very top want to start addressing that, the future is further haemorrhaging from the pews and this institution will certainly end up as a "smaller, purer Church", utterly irrelevant to society at large, and only useful as some kind of emotional, not spiritual, therapy for "the little people" and "the simple people" who do not want to think, or cannot think.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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Why the institutional leadership cannot rely on the excuse "we did not know"...

by judith, Walloon Australia, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 16:19 (318 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

After reading ""Beyond Belief" three parts stand out like neon lights as to why people have left the Church and many more will be going.

pages 14-15 (Lord Nolan UK)
The care of children is at the forefront of the teachings of Christ and is, therefore., one of the primary responsibilities of all members of the Church led by their priests and bishops."

p. 18 Professor Hannah McGee (Ireland)
"the occurence and, more importantly, the mismanagement of clerical child abuse represents a loss throughout Irish society,,rather than as isolated problem for an unfortunate few."

p.24 (Bishops of Oceania 1998)
Sexual abuse by some clergy amd reigious has caused great suffering and spiritual harm to the victims. It has been very damaging in the life of the Church and has become an obstacle to proclaiming the Gospel."

And the leaders still don't get it. Any one of the above would be enough to set alarm bells ringing and demands for immediate action if such behaviour was reported in any reputable company in the commercial world. Doesn't God deserve the same, or better?

Makes the New Evangelization an even more hypocritical exercise, or shows up the blatant stupidity of those who believe that we will be so fired up that we won't think or ask questions about these issues. Tough luck, old boys. Only Bishops and FTTMs etc would be blind or so uncaring.


J A Holznagel

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Who do they think they are fooling?

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 18:26 (318 days ago) @ judith

Judith and all,

[image]I've also been reading a bit more of Robert Blair Kaiser's book "The Politics of Sex and Religion" — something else that's available as a "free download" and worth every last cent of it too [LINK]. Kaiser charts in graphic detail the "goings on" in Paul VI's Committee to examine the Contraception issue in the lead up to Humanae Vitae. If you want to find the start of the "modern problem" that is as good a place as any to start. A majority of those who assembled on that committee recommended to Paul VI to change the teaching — Kaiser goes through minutely the arguments back and forth in the committee for them to arrive at that position. Meanwhile, within the group was this small minority of trogolodytes who believed that any change would undermine the authority of the magisterium, the pope and the entire institution. Like the minorities we see today they would not listen to any other arguments. When they lost the vote within the panel of "experts" they then went to work politically within the Curia, and with Paul VI, and petrified the poor bastard to the point where he didn't know whether he was arthur or marthur. WHAT A FABULOUS VICTORY TO SECURE THE TEACHING AUTHORITY AND RESPECT IN WHICH CATHOLICISM AND ITS LEADERS WERE/ARE HELD?

People cloned from the same mould "control the agenda" today. What Yallop's book, and so much other evidence points to is that their constant fear is having to admit that the Church, and its hierarchical leaders are ever wrong about anything. And I mean "anything". This isn't just not being infallible about core doctrine. This is being infallible about everything under the sun.

Who do they think they fool? Certainly not the mainstream in society. It's constantly, constantly all aimed at this tiny, unrepresentative minority that Benedict himself has labelled "the little people" and "the simple people". The reality is that they could not give a tinker's curse about these "little people" and "simple people" any more than they care about the children raped by these wayward priests. They only care about "the little people" and "the simple people" just so long as they rock up in St Peter's Square and at venues like World Youth Day enthusiastically waving their flags and bunting and thinking what a swell guy the pope is. They seem incapable of perceiving the 90% of the baptized population who should be at these events but who no longer bother to front up. They don't care about lifting these precious "little people and simple people" into heaven, or whatever the end objective of participating is, they want them only as some kind of "cheer squad". None of these bishops and cardinals will be standing behind the "simple people" at any Last Judgment to accept responsibility for the misguided advice they gave these "little people" about what to believe and how to live their lives. Do any of these bishops and curial nitwits ever pause for a single second and ask themselves if this "game" that they are playing actually fools this All-powerful and All-seeing God they told us to believe in who is supposed to keep some kind of account of their stewardship? I sincerely doubt it on the evidence I see. The first commandment for these people is no longer "I am the Lord your God; you shall not have strange God's before me" but it has been replaced by a new commandment: "The pope and the church can never be wrong about anything; and, more so, we must never admit that our 'glorious leaders', or their predecessors have ever been wrong about anything". They even today make mince meat of the most fundamental teachings and insights of Catholicism. And to what end? This constant, constant appeasement of a tiny section of humanity who want certitude above truth — and even before their breakfast each morning.

Everywhere you look up the hierarchical ladder it is the same game played over and over again: blame someone else — secular society, the devil, lawyers, the media, the victims, bishops blaming priests, archbishops blaming those below them, the pope blaming bishops. The "buck stops nowhere" in this institution any longer just so long as you can preserve the myth that the ordained are "ontologically changed" and incapable of sin or error! And the greater part of the myth is that the higher they are promoted up the hierarchical tree the more ontologically changed they become and even more incapable of sin, error or any lack of wisdom.

Human society desperately, desperately needs a priesthood and ecclesial leadership the world at large can again respect and look up to as some source of wisdom and spiritual insight. We need a leadership that actually understands Jesus and is not distracted by all the trappings of the Holy Roman Imperial Empire and its quests for power and pomp and evading responsibility.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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Beyond Belief: copies available

by Englishwoman @, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 14:37 (318 days ago) @ desi

Apparently obtainable in UK from

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/

which offers free delivery worldwide,

or amazon.co.uk which would probably charge to deliver.

I've just ordered a 2nd hand copy on CA's recommendation/urging.

Mary

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by James, Australia, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 22:57 (317 days ago) @ desi
edited by James, Monday, July 09, 2012, 00:47

I have read Beyond Belief, and I have to say that I have very serious misgivings about it. First: who wrote it? At the bottom is this note:

Adapted from The Power and the Glory: Inside the Dark Heart of John Paul II’s Vatican, by David Yallop, Carroll and Graf Publishers, 245 W. 17th St., N.Y., N.Y.; © Poetic Products Ltd. 2007.


Did David Yallop "adapt" it, or did someone else?

The start of my misgivings came from the very second paragraph which I will deal with in sectons:

The Roman Catholic Church looked after its own, and offending clerics could not be brought before civil courts unless special permission was obtained to do so.

Where is he talking about? He could not be talking about common law countries. The dispute between Henry II and Thomas a'Becket in 1166 was over the right of the civil courts to try clergy for crimes. It was one of the reasons, or excuses for Henry VIII breaking away from the Church. The "benefit of clergy" was gradually whittled away under any vestige of it remained in England in 1823 and 1827 and was largely abolished in the United States in 1790. I can't speak for Continental systems of law, with close ties to the Catholic Church, but I would have been very surprised if it still remained there with the French revolution and later ones throughout Europe getting rid of the power of the Church.

The system was one that clearly had the full approval of Pope John Paul II. In 1983, after twenty-four years of deliberation, the current Code of Canon Law was published, and among the many changes from the previous 1917 Code, Law 119 covering the need for special permission was removed.


This passage does not make sense. It says that the need for "special permission" for clergy to be brought before civil courts was removed in the 1983 revision of Canon Law. Well, let's assume that prior to 1983, there was something in Canon Law that said that no cleric could be brought before a civil court. How did that effect the civil law? It couldn't and it didn't. This book seems to have been written on the basis that the Reformation, the French Revoluton, the European revolutions of the 1800s, the taking away of the Papal States had never occurred.

It was a decision that many of the Catholic hierarchy have since bitterly regretted. In less than two years, the floodgates had opened. Within a decade, the cost of sexual abuse to the Roman Catholic Church at every level was devastating. In the United States alone, since 1984, the financial cost in legal fees and awards to the sexually abused is in excess of $1 billion. The cost to the image and reputation of the Catholic hierarchy is inestimable.

And in the last part of the second paragraph, the reader is given the impression that if it were not for this change in Canon Law in 1983, none of the abuse of children would emerge. That is absolute nonsense.

As I went through the book, much of what it describes has been well documented before, but I started to become suspicious again when I started to put his quotes into Google to see where they might be independently verified. I found about 2 out of ten. Now some of them might be explained by the author himself speaking to the people involved, such as Tom Doyle, or maybe because they are the author's translation of something originally spoken in another language. But he quotes an affidavit by Tom Doyle, but the only instance of it on the internet that appears is in the internet reference for the book. I find this highly unususal, but of course, it is possible that it had not been quoted elsewhere.

But there are several others, from Vatican officials and even from Benedict XVI himself that are not found anywhere else on the internet.

Unfortunately none of his sources for quotes are revealed, and that itself makes it highly suspect.

I'm sorry to put a damp squib on this book, but I think the issue is too important to be relying on bad scholarship.

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by desi @, Australia, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 23:12 (317 days ago) @ James

I don't know if this will help at all, it is a link to a sample of David Yallop's book Beyond Belief.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beyond-Belief-Catholic-Scandal-ebook/dp/B004K6LOZ0/ref=sr_1_1?s...

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by James, Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 00:31 (317 days ago) @ desi

Thanks, Desi, but the second paragraph is still there in the book. It is complete rubbish. It is very regrettable, because anyone with the slightest understanding of the European history, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the loss of the Papal States, the revolts against Church power in Europe in the 1830s will see it. Does anyone really think that before a priest was prosecuted for any crime in Bismarck's Germany, that the State had to get permission from the Vatican? Or in any part of the world prior to 1983?

If you get a bad impression of a book in the second paragraph, you have to have doubts about the rest.

I haven't tried to track down all the quotes in the book, but the sample that I took does not leave me with much confidence in its accuracy.

Having said that, most of the things that he describes in the book are available from other sources, and it still is a sorry tale.

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, July 09, 2012, 01:14 (317 days ago) @ James

James, I think they are interesting points you raise — and I'd like to see more information of that history. The legal situation notwithstanding I think there has been a long culture of priests being treated differently or deferentially to anyone else. Just take the case of the "Catholic Magistrate" in the case between the 15 year old Jurd boy and this priest and the magistrate, good Catholic man that he undoubtedly is, refused to accept the evidence of the child against that of the priest. I grew up in a household where priests and bishops were raised on this massive pedestal of being beyond reproach about anything and there is still an element in society who appear to think like that. There is another prominent case being discussed in the SMH on Saturday where allegations have been made that Catholic officials in the secular legal system have given deferential, or preferential, treatment to Catholic clergy.

Whatever the strictly legal situation down through the centuries, I think it could be claimed that there was a level of deference, or "special circumstance", that applied to priests and other Church functionaries. There may have been legal precedent for this even hundreds of years before but I think we can still see it operating to some extent in society today albeit that they are fast losing any privileges today that they might have enjoyed either legally, or as cultural/social privilege in the past.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by James, Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 01:33 (317 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Brian,

I can't comment on the Jurd case, and in every situation you are never going to get a perfect justice system, simply because judges and magistrates bring with them their own cultural baggage. It may have been better for the particular magistrate to have disqualified himself, but then, what if the next magistrate was a Catholic hating Protestant who believed that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon and its priests offspring of the devil?

Whatever one might think of deference being given to priests before, these scandals have probably swung public prejudice the other way. Who would want to be a Christian brother facing an allegation of pedophilia these days?

But in any event, that is not what Yallop is talking about. In his second paragraph he says that Canon Law required permission of the Church before a cleric could be subject to the civil courts. Firstly, Canon 119 didn't say that, and secondly, how could Canon Law affect anything in civil law when the secular State had been in existence over most of the western world for at least 200 years before 1983.

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by Milly ⌂ @, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 23:36 (317 days ago) @ James

Thanks for the heads up about this, James. It just goes to show how we should always check the sources!


Musica delenit bestiam feram.

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Heads Up?

by Debb @, Monday, July 09, 2012, 06:32 (317 days ago) @ Milly

"Heads up" is an expression new to me, perhaps because I don't watch tv. Milly, can you explain to this backward gal what it means? Thanks.

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Heads Up?

by Milly ⌂ @, Monday, July 09, 2012, 12:38 (317 days ago) @ Debb

Actually Deb, I think it's an Americanism. I have a lot of American friends to whom I speak with on an almost daily basis, as some of their saying sneak into my conversation.

More and more we're becoming a 'global' community where the internet blurs the borders between countries. We live in 'interesting times', don't we? :-D


Musica delenit bestiam feram.

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, July 09, 2012, 00:54 (317 days ago) @ James

James, thanks for your observations. I didn't read the paper through the eyes of a lawyer. As you suggest "much of what it describes has been well documented before". What I thought was valuable in the book was that he had assembled a lot of that evidence in one place. What I don't think can be disputed either are the general observations that flow out of the evidence — essentially backing up what you yourself have written in various places — that those at the very top have not taken responsibility for the crisis and, in various ways, endeavoured to protect the reputation of the institution in preference to either attending to the needs of the victims or taking effective measures to ensure the incidence of abuse was reduced or eliminated.

I do believe whoever posted the article on Elephants in the Living Room could have provided some further background information. It was even confusing initially in that the article seemed to be attributed to Bishop Robinson. From the slim reference at the end of the article, and also from Yallop's website and Amazon, it seems this paper is taken from a chapter (or chapters) in his book "The Power and the Glory: Inside the Dark Heart of Pope John Paul II's Vatican" originally published Mar 7, 2007. (The edition presently available on Amazon is a 2009 edition.) The paper on the Elephants in the Living Room seems to be a draft of the Kindle Edition, or possibly a draft of a paper he delivered somewhere at some stage — there are a heck of a lot of typos in it — and the Amazon Kindle page says the Kindle Edition of Beyond Belief has been updated to August 2010. This "draft" paper on Elephants would seem to be not updated but finishes its evidence back around 2005, or possibly 2007.

Given all the criticisms — both yours and mine — I still view the assembly of this material as a valuable contribution to what is a generally damning indictment of the manner in which this institution has handled this entire scandal around the world. What seems to motivate the entire institutional hierarchy these days is this constant need to pretend that this church and its leaders are perfect and never make mistakes and no teachings ever need to be reversed because that will diminish their reputation or authority in the eyes of humanity. It is not Christ-like behaviour but the behaviour either of bullies who are prepared to trample over anybody — including abused children if necessary — in pursuit of their ego satisfaction, or mummy's boys who have never matured (weren't those statistics from Eugene Kennedy's research in the early 1970s interesting? and the later one's quoted from a separate study?) whose entire lives seem centred around trying to prove to their mothers what nice, powerful, clever, intelligent, or "good" boys they turned out to be. It might impress this small remnant and conservative minority in the church are into that sort of stuff, and who all the energy is expended on, but I sense the vast bulk of the population in the Western world are well and truly over it.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by James, Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 01:23 (317 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
edited by James, Monday, July 09, 2012, 01:34

Let's go back to what Yallop says about the 1917 Code of Canon Law

Can 119. Omnes fideles debent clericis, pro diversis eorum gradibus et muneribus, reverentiam seque sacrilegii delicto commaculant, si quando clericis realem iniuriam intulerint.


http://www.jgray.org/codes/cic17lat.html
http://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/documents/AAS%2009%20II%20[1917]%20-%20ocr.pdf

Now, my Latin is a bit rusty, but I can't find anything that would suggest that a cleric cannot be brought before a State court without first getting permission from the Church.

I wasn't able to track down an official English translation, but I found this commentary,

The removal of canon 119 of the 1917 code that declared the physical violation of a cleric to be a sacrilege assured that any reference to sacrilege would be omitted.


http://aladinrc.wrlc.org/bitstream/handle/1961/9214/McLaughlin_cua_0043A_10068display.p...

Canon 119 made a physical attack on a cleric a sacrilege. It was that which was removed in the 1983 Code.

This is an extraordinary and fundamental error in the second paragraph of the book, which casts a pall of inaccuracy over the rest. And that is my problem with it, which was only confirmed when I tried to track down the people he quoted in circumstances where one would expect to find other instances on the internet.

It's an awful shame because, I agree that a lot of what he writes is well documented in other places, but in the light of the serious inaccuracy in his second paragraph, the book is only going to be rubbished - and with some justification.

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by Helen @, The other side of Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 01:13 (317 days ago) @ James

I'm sorry to put a damp squib on this book, but I think the issue is too important to be relying on bad scholarship.


James, I don't think anyone can be sorry about a damp squib being chucked into the discussion. One always has to read anything with an eye on who the author is and their reasons for writing such arguments.

I don't know anything about David Yallop but I presume he isn't 'anti Catholic at any cost' because that alone would bring down his arguments as being based on his anti Catholic stance and therefore as you say bad scholarship.


Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ

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I too have some serious misgivings about Beyond Belief

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 10:37 (317 days ago) @ Helen

I have always had serious doubts about David Yallop. I think he is in Da Vinci Code territory.

His account of the supposed murder of JPI is conspiracy theory. I have little faith in the Vatican but I worked for Church agencies for 46 years and I just do not believe a) that they could organise a murder like that and b) that they could all keep quiet and cover it up.

Now I know that some people will say, "But they didn't cover it up; David Yallop sussed it out." But he didn't. He made it up.

John Cornwall has a much better, historically sound and well researched book on the death of JPI. He says it was scandalous that he was not looked after better. He is very critical of the Vatican officials but like me he thinks Yallop is a poor scholar and a sensationalist.

If Yallop wrote this material I would be very suspicious and I would check everything until I was confident that it is not just conspiracy theory.

I also take James' point. Check the bits you know are wrong and if there are a few of them, and especially if they are bad esearch you can be pretty sure some of the things you don't know are wrong too.

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by Liz, Monday, July 09, 2012, 11:55 (317 days ago) @ James

The system was one that clearly had the full approval of Pope John Paul II. In 1983, after twenty-four years of deliberation, the current Code of Canon Law was published, and among the many changes from the previous 1917 Code, Law 119 covering the need for special permission was removed.

This passage does not make sense. It says that the need for "special permission" for clergy to be brought before civil courts was removed in the 1983 revision of Canon Law. Well, let's assume that prior to 1983, there was something in Canon Law that said that no cleric could be brought before a civil court. How did that effect the civil law? It couldn't and it didn't. This book seems to have been written on the basis that the Reformation, the French Revoluton, the European revolutions of the 1800s, the taking away of the Papal States had never occurred.

I was just wondering if "Privilegium fori" had been considered within this context:

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"Privilegium fori"

This secures the clergy a special tribunal in civil and criminal causes before an ecclesiastical judge. The civil causes of clerics pertain by nature to the secular courts as much as those of the laity. But the thought that it was unseemly that the fathers and teachers of the faithful should be brought before laymen as judges, and also the experience that many laymen were greatly inclined to oppress the clergy (c. 3 in VIto de immun., III, 23), led the Church to withdraw her servants even in civil matters from the secular courts, and to bring them entirely under her own jurisdiction.

.....
But, wherever the pope has not relinquished the privilegium fori, lawgivers and administrators, who directly or indirectly compel the judges to summon ecclesiastical persons before the secular forum, incur excommunication specially reserved to the pope (Pius IX, "Apostolicæ Sedis moderationi", 12 October, 1869, I, 7). In places where the papal derogation of the privilegium fori has not been secured but where justice can be obtained only before the secular judge, a lay complainant, before summoning a cleric before the secular courts, should seek the bishop's permission, or, if the complaint be against a bishop, the permission of the pope. Otherwise, the bishop can take punitive measures against him (S. Congregation of the Inquisition, 23 January, 1886). It is also in accordance with the spirit of the privilegium fori that it is ordered in many dioceses that all complaints of and against clerics be laid first before the bishop for settlement; should no settlement be reached, the case may then be brought before the secular court [Archiv für kathol. Kirchenrecht, VII (1862), 200 sqq.; LXXXIII (1903), 505 sq., 562; LXXXV (1905), 571; LXXXVI (1906), 356 sq.].

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12437a.htm

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Some Serious Misgivings about Beyond Belief

by James, Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 12:36 (317 days ago) @ Liz

Thanks for referring us to this, Liz. But Yallop didn't write that until 1983, a prosecution of a priest by the civil courts without the consent of the bishop or Pope resulted in excommunication of anyone involved. He mentions nothing about excommunication. This is what the second paragraph of the books says,

The Roman Catholic Church looked after its own, and offending clerics could not be brought before civil courts unless special permission was obtained to do so. The system was one that clearly had the full approval of Pope John Paul II. In 1983, after twenty-four years of deliberation, the current Code of Canon Law was published, and among the many changes from the previous 1917 Code, Law 119 covering the need for special permission was removed. It was a decision that many of the Catholic hierarchy have since bitterly regretted. In less than two years, the floodgates had opened. Within a decade, the cost of sexual abuse to the Roman Catholic Church at every level was devastating.


Bur even if what he meant to say was that anyone involved with prosecuting a priest without permission from the Church could be excommunicated, it still does not make sense. Firstly, because, as I have already shown, Canon 119 of the 1917 Code made it a sacrilege (ie. a sin according to the Church) to physically assault a priest. It has nothing to do with getting permission before a civil prosecution. But even if he just got his Canons mixed up, and some other provision was dropped from the 1983 Code, it is ludicrous to suggest that the "floodgates" or civil claims against the Church opened because of an 1983 change to Canon Law.

Firstly, the "floodgates" started in the United States, which from the beginning has been a secular State with a minority Catholic population. And it started because victims started going to the police and to lawyers. Until you bought it up, I had never heard of the "privilegium fori" requirement of Canon Law (and I had studied it) and I doubt that any victim, lawyer or prosecutor, assuming they were Catholics, was aware of it either.

Assuming that Yallop meant to refer to the lifting of excommunication for not getting permission first to prosecute a priest for anything (including a traffic violation), the only way there could be a causal connection between the "floodgates" and the 1983 change was if the victims, the prosecutors and lawyers, including Protestants and atheists, were shaking in their boots at the prospect of being excommunicated from a Church they may not have even belonged to.

The proposition is just absurd.

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A quote from Beyond Belief - Relevant for the current situation?

by desi @, Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 14:29 (317 days ago) @ James

In 2002 the Chairman of the German Bishops’ conference, Cardinal Lehmann, was asked by Der Spiegel,

“When cases are suspect, are the judicial authorities called in?” He responded, “This is not our task. The authorities involve themselves … in clear-cut cases – we ourselves are often in the dark – we motivate the culprit to self-denunciation. That is better for everybody. In addition, we undertake our own preliminary investigations; that is dictated by Canon Law. If there is enough evidence, the relevant person is suspended from office. But that is a matter for individual dioceses. The Bishops’ conference is not responsible for such matters.”

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A quote from Beyond Belief - Relevant for the current situation?

by James, Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 20:54 (317 days ago) @ desi

Desi,

This quote is a very good illustration of what I am talking about with Yallop's book. Take any sentence or phrase and put them in a Google search for the exact words and you will get two hits - your own here above in Catholica, and the Elephantsintheroom extract, from which it has been taken. He has put these words in inverted commas, ie a direct quote from Der Spiegel.

Now, this quote cannot be some conversation that Yallop had with Cardinal Lehmann. It is identified as a direct quote from Der Spiegel, an internationally renowned publication whose articles or citations from them are repeated countless times in commentaries in other publications.

There are three explanations for this:

1. This quotation does not appear in Yallop's book, and whoever did the "adapting" for the Elephantsinthelivingroom web page made it up. That itself creates a problem for anyone who read the "adaption", because that is what is being relied on here, not the actual book.

2. The words do appear in Yallop's book and he made his own translation from the original German Der Spiegel - in which case a word for word search would not find it. This would seem to be a strange thing to do because Der Spiegal has an English edition, and the appropriate thing to do would be to use their official translation. However, I haven't been able to trace when the English edition of Der Spiegel started, so this is possible.

3. Yallop simply made the whole lot up.

If you then put in "Cardinal Lehmann Der Spiegel Bishops conference 2002 Canon Law culprit", you end up with 75 hits, none of which relate to the quote.

In view of the nonsense in the second paragraph of the book (and that really has been correctly transcribed from the book to the "adaptation", as can be seen from the Amazon extract) about the effect of the 1983 change to Canon Law, one has to be suspicious.

The problem is that the quote does ring true, because it really does reflect what a number of senior Church officials have been saying, with quotes that can be directly traced.

I'm happy to change my mind about this if anyone wants to spend a bit more time trying to find the source, but when I applied the same test to about 10 quotes in the "adaptation", I came up with about 2 that I could trace.

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A quote from Beyond Belief - Relevant for the current situation?

by desi @, Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 21:11 (317 days ago) @ James

Thanks for that, James, it really does get curiouser and curiouser.

I must admit that I read the first part of the 'Essay' before your original post and the rest after reading what you had to say.

As a result I was very wary of posting any quotes but decided in my wisdom (!) that as it came from Der Spiegel it would be quite OK. (Hey, ho).

(Only goes to show, you never can tell).

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The other possibility is that he was quoting from the German edition of Der Spiegel

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, July 09, 2012, 22:48 (316 days ago) @ James

It took a bit of searching, and at this point I only have a Google translation, but Cardinal Karl Lehmann gave a lengthy interview to Der Spiegel on 24th June 2002, part of which was picked up in a later edition of Der Spiegel and also Zenit on 15th July in that year.

You'll find the original German edition here: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-22955262.html

I suspect these are the relevant paragraphs from which Yallop got his quote but remember this is only an automatic translation by Google and it really needs someone with more skill in translation to check how closely Yallop's quote might match the German original meaning.

----Original German Text----

Der Papst hat das Heft in der Hand

Von Schwarz, Ulrich und Wensierski, Peter

Der Vorsitzende der Deutschen Bischofskonferenz, Kardinal Karl Lehmann, über den Skandal pädophiler Priester, die Macht der Kirche in einer hochgradig individualisierten Gesellschaft und die Gebrechlichkeit von Johannes Paul II.

SPIEGEL: Herr Kardinal, der Skandal um Hunderte pädophiler Priester in den USA hat das Ansehen der katholischen Kirche weltweit schwer erschüttert. Wie steht es um die moralische Glaubwürdigkeit Ihrer Institution?

Lehmann: Die moralische Glaubwürdigkeit leidet, wenn man mit solchen furchtbaren Ereignissen nicht verantwortlich umgeht. Insofern glaube ich durchaus, dass es ganz deutliche quantitative wie qualitative Unterschiede zwischen der Skandalwelle in den USA und dem Umgang mit der Frage in Deutschland gibt. Wir haben in Deutschland keine Skandalwelle wie in den USA.

SPIEGEL: Wie viele Fälle gibt es denn in Deutschland?

Lehmann: In meiner Diözese Mainz sind es in den 19 Jahren, in denen ich Bischof bin, insgesamt vielleicht drei oder vier Fälle gewesen. Eine bundesweite Übersicht gibt es nicht. Nochmals: Wir haben das Problem nicht in diesem Ausmaß. Warum soll ich mir den Schuh der Amerikaner anziehen, wenn er mir nicht passt?

SPIEGEL: Aber auch in Deutschland hat die Kirche, wie in den USA, jahrelang nach dem Motto gehandelt: vertuschen, versetzen, bloß keine Justiz.

Lehmann: Das mag früher in Einzelfällen so gewesen sein, Ich kenne - nicht nur in meinem Bistum - solche Fälle nicht. Dass Pädophilie ein schweres, letztlich unheilbares Fehlverhalten ist, ist seit Jahren bekannt. Seither muss jedem bewusst sein, dass man Priester, die sich verfehlt haben, nicht einfach versetzen kann. Das ist allen Bischöfen klar.

SPIEGEL: Schalten Sie in Verdachtsfällen die Justizbehörden ein?

Lehmann: Dies ist nicht unsere Aufgabe. Die Behörden schalten sich selbst ein und werden

zum Einschreiten aufgerufen. In eindeutigen Fällen - wir tappen ja auch oft länger im Dunkeln herum - bewegen wir den Täter zur Selbstanzeige. Dies ist für alle besser. Außerdem führen wir eigene Voruntersuchungen durch; nach dem Kirchenrecht ist das auch vorgeschrieben. Der Betreffende wird, wenn die Indizien reichen, sofort von seinem Amt suspendiert. Das ist aber Sache der einzelnen Diözesen, die Bischofskonferenz ist hier nicht zuständig. Im Übrigen haben die US-Bischöfe vorvergangene Woche entschiedene Regeln aufgestellt und auch manches eigene Verhalten bedauert.

SPIEGEL: Jeder Einzelfall richtet enormen Schaden an.

Lehmann: Natürlich. Deswegen muss unser erster Blick und alle Aufmerksamkeit auch zunächst einmal dem Opfer gelten. Ich habe gleich, nachdem ich ein paar Wochen als neuer Bischof in Mainz war, einen sehr schwer wiegenden Fall gehabt. Damals habe ich mich sofort dazu entschieden, die Öffentlichkeit zu informieren. Andere mögen anders gehandelt haben. Aber spätestens das offene Wort des Papstes an die Amerikaner in dieser Angelegenheit hat doch jedem Bischof die Augen geöffnet, dass er mit Kindesmissbrauch durch einen Priester nicht lasch umgehen kann.

SPIEGEL: Hat es wegen der US-Fälle in Deutschland Kirchenaustritte gegeben?

Lehmann: In meinem Bistum ist mir kein Fall bekannt.

----Google Translation----

The pope has the power in the hands

By Schwarz, Ulrich and Wensierski, Peter

The chairman of the German Bishops Conference, Cardinal Karl Lehmann, the scandal over pedophile priests, the power of the church in a highly individualized society and the frailty of John Paul II

SPIEGEL: Your Eminence, the scandal of hundreds of pedophile priests in the United States has shaken the reputation of the Catholic Church around the world hard. What about the moral credibility of your institution?

Lehmann: The moral credibility will suffer if you do not deal with such terrible events responsible. To that extent I do believe that there are very clear quantitative and qualitative differences between the wave of scandals in the U.S. and dealing with the issue in Germany. In Germany we have no wave of scandals in the United States.

SPIEGEL: How many cases are there in Germany?

Lehmann: In my diocese Mainz it was in the 19 years that I am a bishop, a total of maybe three or four cases. There is no nationwide index does not exist. Again, the problem we have not to this extent. Why should I put the shoe on the Americans if he does not fit me?

SPIEGEL: But has the church in Germany, as in the U.S., traded for years with the motto: put cover up, just no justice.

Lehman: That may once have been in some cases, so I know - not just in my diocese - not such cases. That pedophilia a serious, incurable misconduct ultimately, is known for many years. Since then, everybody needs to realize that priests who have offended against, can not simply put. It is clear to all the bishops.

SPIEGEL: Turn on suspected cases in the judiciary?

Lehman: This is not our job. The authorities turn itself on and

called to intervene. In clear cases - we grope in the dark, too often longer around - we move the offender to self-display. This is better for everyone. We also conduct their own preliminary investigations, according to canon law, is also required. The person is, if the circumstantial evidence is sufficient, immediately suspended from his post. But this is a matter for individual dioceses, the Episcopal Conference is not in charge. Moreover, the U.S. bishops two weeks ago have established strong rules and even some regrets own behavior.

SPIEGEL: Every individual case depends on enormous damage.

Lehmann: Of course. So have our first look and all the attention first of all apply to the victim. I immediately, after I had a couple of weeks as the new Bishop of Mainz, had a very serious case. At that time, I immediately decided to inform the public. Others might have acted differently. But the latest word of the Pope's open to the Americans in this matter, but every bishop has opened his eyes, he with child abuse by a priest can not handle lax.

SPIEGEL: Has there been because of the U.S. cases in Germany, leaving the church?

Lehmann: In my diocese I know of no case.

--------------------------

Are you any good at German, James. How does this match up with what David Yallop has written?


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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The other possibility is that he was quoting from the German edition of Der Spiegel

by James, Australia, Monday, July 09, 2012, 23:05 (316 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

No, Brian, I really know only a few words of German, and that was one of the reasons I didn't try searching the German edition. Thank you for finding that. I did foresee this as a possibility.

I have changed my mind about that quote, because even though it is only a Google translation it does pick up the substance of the Cardinal Lehmann quote in the adaptation of the book. And, as I said, the quote does ring true because of what others have said.

However, it doesn't alter the fact that Yallop really did make up the second paragraph of his book, on a matter of pretty fundamental importance of why there was this "floodgate" of complaints.

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