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Presumption & Prejudice: Sunday Readings 14 B (Y-not question the Sunday Readings)

by Ynot @, Friday, July 06, 2012, 18:12 (321 days ago)
edited by Ynot, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 17:59

[image]


Fourteenth Sunday in Ordinary Time

Year B

Gospel

Jesus departed from there and came to his native place, accompanied by his disciples.
When the sabbath came he began to teach in the synagogue,
and many who heard him were astonished.
They said, "Where did this man get all this?
What kind of wisdom has been given him?
What mighty deeds are wrought by his hands!
Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary,
and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon?
And are not his sisters here with us?"
And they took offense at him.
Jesus said to them,
"A prophet is not without honor except in his native place
and among his own kin and in his own house."
So he was not able to perform any mighty deed there,
apart from curing a few sick people by laying his hands on them.
He was amazed at their lack of faith.

+++

I think there is more to this little episode than a nice story about Jesus going back home for a few days to see the family, and taking the opportunity to speak in the synagogue while he was there. Mark even avoids calling the town Nazareth. He says that Jesus "came to his native place". This might have been for readers in far away places who had no idea where Nazareth was. But simply by saying Jesus came to his native place, Mark already gives the story a global dimension. What is his "native place", if not any place where people would know him and claim him as their own, anywhere that people feel that he belongs among them.

But he complained about their refusal to give him credit for what he was doing, and was amazed at their lack of faith.

This a warning that growing up with Jesus gives no title of privileged access to him. It could be a criticism of the people who stayed home, not even bothering to go down to the Jordan to be baptised by John, with the result that they remained locked in their small-town ignorance and the presumption and prejudice it sheltered.

It could also be a reprimand. The maxim that "a prophet is not without honor except in his native place
and among his own kin and in his own house"
is not an excuse. It is a shameful thing. Familiarity breeds contempt. The Jerusalem Bible has: "A prophet is only despised in his own country..."

Presumption and prejudice can be found in Christian churches today at every level. It is not a good idea to think of oneself as a "born Catholic", or Christian-by-birth. There is no birthright to 'the Christ'. The notion of "Vicar of Christ" as a title that endows a man with authority to speak and act definitively on behalf of Jesus the Christ is problematic in the extreme. If we dare describe ourselves as the "People of God", it must always be as a pilgrim people, a people called out of darkness. The call is always to leave where you are and go forth - go forward - go away, perhaps.

+++

This is recognised throughout the Bible, and indeed in all traditions of spirituality. Abraham was called "to leave your father and your father's house and go forth to a land I will show you" (Gen 12:1) This quote is from the opening words in the story of Abraham, "our father in faith"[/color]. The letter to the Hebrews adds another phrase: "he went out, not knowing where he was to go" (Heb 11:8).

The start of the journey of faith for every least one of us can only be in leaving, in going out. Leaving is up to us: the place of our arrival is in God's hands. The only mistake we can make is to refuse to leave, to sit tight, holding fast to our traditions and protecting our accomplishments.

+++

Yet currently church leaders make much of their responsibility to protect and preserve. The idea that the Creator Spirit might depend on us to keep safe its work is the stuff that dreams are made on. Looking at their current attempt to wind back the Spirit-filled experience of Vatican II, we might well be amazed at their lack of faith.

Vatican II was a brave beginning, but it fell far short of what is needed. Even its charter of aggiornamento only meant 'bringing up to date', and the subtext was to open windows on the world. While this was a necessary and courageous first step at the time, it is hardly a worthy response to the call for metanoia that opens the gospel narrative and must be the program of every day in the life not only of every christian but of every institution that bears the name Christian. It doesn't even begin to resonate with the word that stands at the very end of the New Testament literature: “Behold, I make all things new” (Rev 21:5).

+++

The question is asked: Do we need the institution? Do we need organised religion? At the very least, this can be said with confidence: In the absence of better guidance from knowledgeable leaders, christians today have to launch into the deep, alone or in small groups, with that trust in the Spirit which is the only touchstone of true spirituality.

While in the centres of ecclesial power they are worried about many things, across the globe new forms of spiritual life in the Way of Jesus are breaking through in fertile ground. There is no time left for standing idly by, waiting to be hired by some remote patron; now it is time to go forth in trust, to join with one or two like-minded folk and become, in your native place, a little community which is the living 'body' of the risen Christ.

If Jesus were to visit "in the flesh" he might well be amazed at the vitality of their faith!

Tony Lawless


'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'

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Small groups, house churches & what is to prevent us becoming cults? I

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Friday, July 06, 2012, 22:36 (321 days ago) @ Ynot

The question is asked: Do we need the institution? Do we need organised religion? At the very least, this can be said with confidence: In the absence of better guidance from knowledgeable leaders, christians today have to launch into the deep, alone or in small groups, with that trust in the Spirit which is the only touchstone of true spirituality.

Thanks, Tony, for another thought-provoking reflection. Amidst all the disturbing and negative news of recent days I have found myself pondering how we "move forward" in positive and affirming ways? I was particularly moved by this line at the end of Tom McMahon's commentary on Wednesday:

"Revenge" will be the battle cry and even though 7% of the clergy are thought to have offended the whole crew of the Bark of Peter is branded and must go ... and ... when having accomplished this task victims will find that vengeance is not the healing answer to their pain.

I think Tom McMahon is correct. No matter how many grand juries, royal commissions, parliamentary inquiries and other legal procedures take place around the world the critical issue we face is "the healing of God's people" — the healing of society. How do we bring that about?

I don't want to downplay the importance of "grand juries, royal commissions, parliamentary inquiries and other legal procedures" — they have their place and ARE important (especially in helping frame the future "culture" and "law" within which society lives out its destiny — but, at the end of each day, the really important thing is our own "peace of heart" and equilibrium within our world. How do we help bring that about — for ourselves, and also for the people who society abuses and leaves in the gutter to fend for themselves?

...to be continued


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Small groups, house churches & what is to prevent us becoming cults? II

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Friday, July 06, 2012, 23:05 (321 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Tony, you suggest:

In the absence of better guidance from knowledgeable leaders, christians today have to launch into the deep, alone or in small groups, with that trust in the Spirit which is the only touchstone of true spirituality.

I honestly wonder though: what is to prevent such "small groups" descending into a huge collection of cults with all these "weird and wonderful" interpretations of what Jesus is about, what God is about, what Life is about? In a way one might observe that is precisely what Christianity has already descended into with reputedly some 30,000 different interpretations or demoninations of Christianity around the world. In another couple of hundred years time will people be asking how come there are sixty thousand or ninety thousand different cults, denominations or interpretations of Jesus or Scripture?

I sense that we (society) do need some kind of structure — or authority — for the reasons I outlined in an earlier response to Enda [LINK]. At the same time, and largely out of watching the Higgs Boson announcement in the last few days, that there we have a collection of many "small groups" scattered around the world and not in some "institutional structure" — albeit many of the people might be working within university and research "institutions" but they are not one "Holy Roman Scientific Institution" — and yet they have an "authority" structure, or process, whereby they are kept on "the straight and narrow" within their culture and terms of reference. They, like theologians, or like ordinary people, are engaged in a "search for truth" albeit a different kind of "truth" than what religious people might think they are searching for. I ask, or ponder: might something like that also be the "model" for our evolving "religious structure" in society?

I think society does need some "authority" structure, or process. That is what prevents society becoming uncivilised — or sliding back into a dog-eat-dog/survival of the strongest, lizard brain level of existence. I actually do have "faith" that there is a "spirit" in the world that drives, or calls, humanity forward in a positive, more civilising, more harmonious direction. In a sense it might be observed that all those scientists who assembled around the world last night to hear the results of the latest research from CERN all have "faith" that the structure which has evolved around them does lead them forward in their search for "truth" and making sense of their world, and ours. In a sense they do not need some "Holy Roman Scientific Institution" to have "faith". Can we (the rest of society) learn something from that?

...to be continued


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How do we interpet Jesus? A personal view (a response also to Bill Dowsley)...

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 00:26 (321 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

This is a continuation of my train of thought in the two previous posts about whether we need an institution and how small groups and house churches can keep to the correct interpretation of Scripture or Jesus.

These Reflections on the Sunday Readings you are leading us in Tony are essentially an exercise in "how to interpret Jesus and Scripture". I think they are important in the context of what I posed at the end of my first post:

I don't want to downplay the importance of "grand juries, royal commissions, parliamentary inquiries and other legal procedures" — they have their place and ARE important (especially in helping frame the future "culture" and "law" within which society lives out its destiny — but, at the end of each day, the really important thing is our own "peace of heart" and equilibrium within our world. How do we help bring that about — for ourselves, and also for the people who society abuses and leaves in the gutter to fend for themselves?

In my own increasing disillusion with our hierarchical leaders and their efforts to misinterpret Vatican II, and take us back to some medieval, or Roman-Triumphalist, interpretation of Catholic belief and thought, I find myself drawn back to a very fundamental question: is the interpretation of Jesus himself that I was brought up on, and schooled in, correct? Perhaps where our institutional leaders are screwing everything up today can be rooted right back to a really fundamental question like the one I have just asked?

Less and less do I personally see Jesus as some "miracle worker" — either in the ancient past or "sitting at the right hand of the Father" today still "pulling our strings" from up in heaven above the clouds somewhere. That, I am almost ashamed to think, is broadly the view I would have had of Jesus for a significant part of my life, even into fairly late-middle adulthood.

GOD DOES NOT INTERVENE IN OUR SOUP, OR "PULL OUR STRINGS", OR EXTEND HIS GREAT HAIRY BUT LOVING ARM DOWN TO CURE OUR CANCERS!

Debb linked to a wonderful article by the Jesuit, Michael Smith, The Ultimate Grand Theory of Everything in the Online Journal of the British Jesuits yesterday [LINK]. I have previously quoted this paragraph from what he wrote as evidence to support what I have just written in all-caps:

Any physical intervention by God in the operation of the universe would involve the violation of one or more of the conservation laws of physics, which state that a particular measurable property of an isolated physical system does not change as the system evolves; even the transfer of information of any kind into the universe has to simultaneously involve an energy transfer, and – as far as science can see – no such violations ever occur. If they did – if they could – it would remove the basis for the whole of scientific thinking, as its most basic principles would be shattered.

I won't repeat here the qualification I discussed to the above that there still seems to be a relationship between us humanbeings and this "Spirit" which seems to suffuse Creation and give it a forward direction [LINK]. It is sufficient at the moment to note that I do qualify the bald statement about a non-interventionist Deity.

My view of Jesus then is changing. I honestly no longer see him as some personal messenger of God the Father who was sent into the world to "forgive our sins" and sprinkle some fairy dust, or grace, that might solve all the problems we encounter in our lives just provided we learn the correct incantations to pray that will release the "fairy dust and grace". Having become sceptical of, or rejected, that view — the "faith of my father" — what do I replace it with? Unbelief? Nihilism? Nothing? Or is there some alternative — some alternative that can remain "faithful to tradition" and exist with some sense of respect to the "faith of our fathers"? Temperamentally, I am not an anarchist or revolutionary, but actually quite conservative still in my own outlook towards life and its meaning.

Bill Dowsley keeps asking in our forum for some "proof" that Jesus existed and did all the things claimed for him in Scripture and other places. I think it is a good question that Bill keeps pulling us back to. Increasingly myself I actually don't think it is an important or even relevant question. I honestly do not care if Jesus ever existed, or did any of the things claimed for him, I increasingly think Jesus — and all the other Mystical Greats of Sacred Scripture such as Moses, Abraham, the Apostles, even Adam and Eve — are in a sense "figments of the imagination" of some of the great minds of ancient times who WERE genuinely "inspired" and what they delivered to us was not so much "the wisdom of these singular individuals" (like Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc.) but "the wisdom of the Ages". Or the collective "theological and spiritual wisdom" of humankind at particular stages of our human evolution and history. These writers of Scripture were not historians and something to be likened to modern day journalists or archivists. They were writing theology and poetry, not historical tomes. They were the "film makers", "novelists", "story tellers" and "myth-makers" of the ancient world.

...to be continued


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A personal interpretation of the meaning of Jesus...

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 01:15 (321 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

What is important about Sacred Scripture is its Mythology, not its Historicity!

I think we need to respect it as much as we respect our physical evolution and all those tiny steps that led to the eventual emergence of "modern humanity". I think we need to respect it in the same way that scientists "respect" the insights of their earlier forebears who paved the way for the insights we have today — even the insights revealed in the last few days with the confirmation of a Boson sub-atomic particle even if we do not yet know if it is definitely THE Higgs Boson. We don't discard it as "unbelieveable" simply because it is old, or subsequent knowledge has rendered some of it no longer relevant and applicable. We need to respect it. More importantly though we need to read, and understand it within the context (the mindframe) of the people who wrote it and the mindframe of the people it was written for. Constantly though we have a responsibility to re-interpet "the wisdom of the ages" within the light of the new knowledge that is becoming available to us through scientific research and the explorations of the "mythmakers, poets and artists" of our modern world.

I do not see Jesus as some person who through some "Divine genetic injection", nor by some "intellectual upload", was given "the wisdom of the ages" by some "Father in Heaven". My interpretation of Jesus today is that he represents "the wisdom of the ages" through the collective "inspiration" he has provided as a point of singular focus for all these "great minds" down through the ages who have interpreted his story, beginning with those largely anonymous writers who started it all off by composing the various books of the New Testament.

I agree with Tom McMahon: Jesus is still important. I believe he does respresent "the collective wisdom" of humankind — and I don't just mean the "collective wisdom" of these largely anonymous people who initially wrote the New Testament. (How many of the authors of the New Testament do we know for absolutely sure who they were? St Paul was one but how many others can you name with absolute confidence?) I mean the "collective wisdom" of all the saints, mystics, theologians, and interpreters of Scripture who have come after him even up to and including people on various opposite sides of some theological interpretation line like Benedict-Ratzinger, John Paul Wojtyla, Hans Küng, Matthew Fox, Hans Urs von Balthasar, Yves Congar, Denis Edwards, Teilhard de Chardin, or any of the prominent writers, conservative or liberal, on theology or spirituality of the last one hundred years.

I know the nutters, the insecure and the "trads" who think they alone can interpret God's mind, might interpret what I have written here as "heretical", but what about the rest of you? Can you find anything heretical in what I have written? How do you interpret Jesus and Scripture today? How do you interpret the story in the Gospel this Sunday where the people were a bit gobsmacked by the "wisdom" Jesus was exhibiting. Did it really happen to this man Jesus? Or is it to be more interpreted as an allegory or metaphor for a common situation we all experience or face at some point or other in our lives today?

So endeth this tome! What's your interpretation or Tome (and I mean "yours" not someone elses)?


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Two contrasting models of Church (and our relationship with God)...

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 04:07 (320 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

This little "graphic essay" was really triggered by a post Helen placed further down in the forum quoting an address by Archbishop Savio Hon Tai Fai, Secretary of Propaganda Fide, and where Helen was disputing the structure of authority he was proposing. [See the post and quotations from Archbishop Savio HERE. It's entitled "Secularism and the Difficulty of Inculturation".] It has also been triggered by the commentaries of recent weeks by Anthony Lowes and Brian Pitts critiqueing the structure of church and our understanding of our relationship with the Divine. It also fits with what I have been writing in the posts above which were triggered by Tony's reflection on this week's reading.

The first graphic in the essay depicts what is my traditional understanding of our relationship to God/the Divine/this "Mystery" at the Heart of Everything:

[image]

In this traditional model the role of the laity is to be docile, to shut up and not ask
questions and to obey with almost blind obedience – in short to "pay, pray and obey"!

This second graphic depicts my changing perception of the relationships. It is partly formed by positive reflection over a long period of time but also by more negative impacts such as watching the abuse of power that has become increasingly evident under the traditional structure or understanding above:

[image]

I perhaps should add that in this second model you may have to attach labels to the various
functionaries in the structure that helps discern what the Spirit is saying; or which helps
discern "the way forward" or "which way is up" in humanity's progress through time.
I assume such a structure would need some "head", just as nations need Prime Ministers,
Presidents or other designations as Heads of State, and as the United Nations needs a
Secretary-General or President. It is the structure, I suggest, rather than the
particular individual, who is accorded the "place of primacy". Ultimately though it
is a position of service (to humanity or sentient creation) rather than a place
of honour, or one where the person in that position is perceived to be holding some
"hotline" to Almighty God. I would like to think that one of the traditional religions
be accorded that "place of Primacy" – or perhaps it becomes a role that is shared on
a rotation basis by the major religious structures or paradigms that exist in the world
in much the same way that the leadership of the United Nations is shared over time?

This second model might seem to require more words to explain it but that is essentially because it is not familiar. In reality it is no more complicated than the first structure and possibly less so.

What are your perceptions on what our relationship is to Jesus, to Church Structure, to this "Ultimate Mystery" which we try to compress into concepts like "Trinity"? I apologise in advance, Tony, if this is a distraction to the Reflection on this Sunday's readings.


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The trads won't like it and neither will...

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 04:18 (320 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

those who enjoy the privileges of power under the existing structure. My sense is that they will all survive as "smaller, purer churches" as in Benedict's vision, fighting their wars with one another, and with humanity at large. What I am really postulating in the essay above is "shape of the phoenix" stuff — or what might evolve out of this massive "spiritual flux" humanity seems to be entering.


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while Tom Doyle tells victims to get militant .....where's that story?

by Roy @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 10:32 (320 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
edited by Roy, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 10:43

i read this stuff

"Revenge" will be the battle cry and even though 7% of the clergy are thought to have offended the whole crew of the Bark of Peter is branded and must go ... and ... when having accomplished this task victims will find that vengeance is not the healing answer to their pain.

what would he bloody know ...all I'm trying to do is STOP these paeds ....they are still out THERE .....Julian FOX is still out there .....is anyone listening.
FIRSTLY let us accomplish the task BEFORE we move on the deciding who got satisfaction

Getting ahead of yourselves


THE OBJECT OF THE EXERCISE IS TO PROTECT KIDS ...WILL A FEW PLEASE KEEP THEIR EYE ON THE BALL!

REMEMBER..[image]

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sorry to be yelling ...but is all there is left!

by Roy @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 11:33 (320 days ago) @ Roy

From Brokenrites

This morning's "AM" program (Sat 7 July) had an tem about former DPP Nicholas Cowdery saying that church leaders who conceal a crime may themselves be charged with committing a crime -- i.e., the crime of concealing a felony.
"AM" webpage:

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3540947.htm

That page now has the full text and you can probably click to hear the audio there.

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What Tom McMahon is saying...

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 13:40 (320 days ago) @ Roy

Roy, I hear you — I suspect every single person who reads this place "hears you"!

As I read Tom McMahon's sentence, what I interpret him to mean is this: that even after every single paedophile and abuser is locked away, at the end of the day every single victim of these abusers still has to find peace and equilibrium in their own lives. Locking away the paedophiles, while it may prevent them doing further damage in society, IT DOES NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEMS THAT THE PAST VICTIMS CONFRONT IN RETURNING TO A PLACE OF PEACE AND EQUILIBRIUM IN THEIR LIVES. As I am sure you would appreciate before most, no amount of money can justly compensate for the damage done. It will always be "token" in one sense even if the Church paid a million dollars to each person who had been abused by the institution. In some cases money is NOT the solution. In one of the cases aired on television during the week we heard where the victim went on a drug bing holiday with his girlfriend when he got the compensation. Did that do him any good? He later committed suicide according to the testimony we heard. We do hear of cases where people win Lotto and rather than bringing great joy and freedom into their lives it ends up being the worse thing that could have happened to them.

The bottom-line is that each person who has been abused still has a right to a place of peace and equilibrium in their lives at least at the level of "peace and equilibrium (and innocence in many cases)" that characterised their life before the transgression took place.

Tom McMahon, it seems to me, is essentially asking: how do we as individuals, and as a community, assist people find the true place of equilibrium from which to rebuild their lives?

Let me say this here clearly: If the allegation made on Four Corners is correct that Fr Julian Fox when he was Principal shoved his erect dick up the arse of even one schoolboy bent over his desk at Rupertswood and Fox is presently being "protected" in the Vatican City State this institution needs to extract its own digit and investigate that allegation and put it to rest whatever the cost. Tarcisio Bertone as the most senior-ranked Salesian in the world needs to understand that this allegation makes mince meat of everything that Don Bosco stood for, that Jesus stood for, that every Salesian in the world is meant to stand for, that every Catholic in the world stands for. Benedict needs to do the same. This stuff is making an utter mockery of the faith and beliefs of all of us!


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What Tom McMahon is saying...

by Roy @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 15:09 (320 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

ah, just making a noise Brian ...I'm like the terrier that won't shut up ;-)

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Does it matter if that happens?

by Sue, Sydney, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 11:06 (320 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

I honestly wonder though: what is to prevent such "small groups" descending into a huge collection of cults with all these "weird and wonderful" interpretations of what Jesus is about, what God is about, what Life is about? In a way one might observe that is precisely what Christianity has already descended into with reputedly some 30,000 different interpretations or demoninations of Christianity around the world. In another couple of hundred years time will people be asking how come there are sixty thousand or ninety thousand different cults, denominations or interpretations of Jesus or Scripture?

Brian, does it really matter whether Christianity descends into a huge collection of small groups and cults?  As long as they stay small.  After all, Christianity is the only mainstream religion that does organize itself into large cross-national institutions under a central hierarchical leadership.  This of course has had its benefits, but as we are discovering, there is also a huge downside when that leadership gets stuck in the past or is threatened with curial takeovers, whether from conservatives or liberals. 

Perhaps we could benefit from having a look at how other religions have organized themselves in such a way that they have continued through the centuries.There are always the sacred texts that remain as a touchstone, after all.

Perhaps we could have both the ritual-oriented priests and temples, but also independent gatherings around spiritual teachers, as in the Hindu tradition.  That would certainly allow for a lot of diversity but it would still rotate around our sacred texts.  And with secular legal constraints, perhaps such groups could not get too far out of hand, in an abusive cult or military sense,  before being pulled back into line by secular, democratically-elected authority.  That's not a completely effective solution, but then nothing is perfect.

Any other suggestions?

Sue

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Does it matter if that happens?

by Helen @, The other side of Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 16:44 (320 days ago) @ Sue

Sue, thanks for your input here.

I have been thinking about how Small Groups work as I belong to one. Always there is a leader - and a natural leader at that, someone who has the idea and the knowledge to be able to lead a discussion. They do NOT take over, they do NOT tell everyone that they have to agree with them, but they do make sure that everyone is heard with respect. It is a circular meeting, no one sits above the other - and it makes no difference which gender leads - as there are gifted leaders to be found amongst ALL of God's people.

As most of these groups are formed by shall we say, the more progressive Christians, there doesn't seem to be quite the divide between 'Protestant' and 'Catholic' that one would imagine. What amazes me (and only because of my Catholic ignorance) that other Christians want to follow Christ with just as much commitment as committed 'Catholics' do.

I have been thinking more and more about a Church without Walls that all can belong to - no not a mega church but small groups meeting in an atmosphere that is 'user friendly' to the particular group that attracts you and this would include all the many versions of Christianity - after all we are not all cut from the same cloth!


Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ

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Small groups

by Sue, Sydney, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 20:23 (320 days ago) @ Helen

Helen, I too have belonged to small groups. In the first, there were definitely some questions that were not up for discussion- theological questions that is. Also there was the sense that people, including the priest-leader, were more interested in the social aspects rather than the spiritual.

The next group had no priests in it, was spiritual-life oriented and the leader was whoever's house was the meeting place that month. That lasted a couple of years but then seemed to die a natural death as people moved to different locations. These two groups were totally Mass-attending Catholics.

The last group, which went more than ten years, met weekly, was focused around meditation. It was also an interfaith group and had visiting teachers from several different fath traditions.. It provided an anchor for those of its members who also went off exploring other religious traditions, like myself. The leader merely facilitated the group but did not give individual spiritual guidance, leaving members free to find that elsewhere, as I did. It stopped meeting some years ago now, as members retired to attend to pressing family responsibilities, or moved out of town.

It was a very satisfying group to be part of, except for the matter of individual spiritual guidance which some of us felt we needed. In your group, Helen, do any of you feel a need for that bit of extra guidance? Perhaps it came up for us because of that exploring beyond our own tradition.

The most satisfying community/group life I have experienced were periods of up to six weeks at a Catholic ashram in the foothills of the Himalayas. There was the life of community, the spiritual practice, discourses on aspects of spiritual guidance, and individual spiritual guidance. But of course something like that cannot be a regular part of one's life.

Although that was a live-in experience, I have known family people who have participated in similar groups (live out rather than live in, with weekly or twice-weekly evening meetings) here in Sydney, but other religious traditions - Buddhist, Sufi, HIndu. And these are totally spirituality/meditation focused, with good spiritual teaching from an experienced monk, nun or spiritual master. Oh for something similar in our own Christian tradition! Do you never feel a longing for something like that Helen? ......Or anybody.......?

Sue

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Small groups, house churches & what is to prevent us becoming cults? I

by Nick @, dianella, west australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 16:48 (320 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Brian, this is what I have been saying for a long time. Tom MacMahon points out that only 7% of clergy is responsible for the sexual abuse - this "activity" is much, much wider in our society.

The evil is the cover-up and this is being done by all sectors of religious and civil society. Only the extreme cases , many years after, surface and receive the attention they deserve.

But what does this "revenge" achieve ? What good does it accomplish for those who have managed to put it behind them and go on to live a positive life ?

Tony's commentary for the Sunday Gospel does point to a positive outcome for those who have been hurt and have forgiven that hurt (if it is possible to ever totally at peace and forgive).

The 4 Corners story and the other media coverage sells newspapers and make a profit for the Murdoch's and their shareholders but will they help and contribute to the hurt these people suffer ?

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"Where did he get all this?"

by CathyT @, Adelaide, South Australia, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 00:04 (321 days ago) @ Ynot
edited by CathyT, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 10:32

Thank you Tony for yet again giving us a fresh (and somewhat challenging!) insight into a well-worn Gospel passage. This particular passage, though well-known, must also be one of the most puzzling sections of the Gospels. You would expect that Jesus' former neighbours and his kinsfolk woud be proud of their local boy made good, or at the very least, if they are offended by him, it would be because he said or did something offensive! Instead, they object to his wisdom, and to the amazing deeds of power that he is capable of - qualities that you would expect would arouse admiration, not hostility and anger. Puzzling texts like this can, of course, give rise to many different interpretations. Tony has given us one, and while I am impressed by his reasoning, I would take an entirely different view.

At one level, the townspeople/ Jesus' relatives are simply astonished that someone who is so ordinary - someone who grew up among them in an ordinary family, and worked at an ordinary trade - has turned out to be a remarkable holy man, a man of outstanding wisdom and almost supernatural powers. Quite mind-boggling! Yet the question they ask, about where these great gifts came from, contains its own answer: it is in ordinary life, among ordinary people and doing ordinary things, that God can be experienced. You don't need to spend all your time in the Temple, or on a mountain top, or anywhere like that, to encounter the divine and to let your own life be filled with the divine.

There's an even deeper level of meaning here, I think. Jesus is a living example to the townsfolk of what they could potentially be, because they also have the presence of God within them. So, they resent Jesus not because he has become "above" them, but because his very being challenges them to realise what they themselves could do and be, if only they would believe. We are told that Jesus did not do any "mighty deeds" there, not because he objected to their reaction, but because he could not. He was so powerful, but he was rendered powerless if others were not able or willing to cooperate with him. Surely this is still the same today?

All this reminds me of that inspiring quotation from Marianne Williamson (sometimes incorrectly attributed to Nelson Mandela). I hope I won't be breaking any copyright rules if I quote it here, because it is actually a small part of a much larger book:

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others"

http://skdesigns.com/internet/articles/quotes/williamson/our_deepest_fear/


Cathy Taggart

I splash in my poetry puddle
and try to keep God amused. - James Broughton

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"Where did he get all this?"

by Ynot @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 20:31 (320 days ago) @ CathyT

At one level, the townspeople/ Jesus' relatives are simply astonished that someone who is so ordinary - someone who grew up among them in an ordinary family, and worked at an ordinary trade - has turned out to be a remarkable holy man, a man of outstanding wisdom and almost supernatural powers. Quite mind-boggling! Yet the question they ask, about where these great gifts came from, contains its own answer: it is in ordinary life, among ordinary people and doing ordinary things, that God can be experienced. You don't need to spend all your time in the Temple, or on a mountain top, or anywhere like that, to encounter the divine and to let your own life be filled with the divine.

Thank you, Cathy. This is wonderful. No need to be forever searching for special goodness or godliness: just get on with being the best you can be, and you will be doing the Father's will...

Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees, or vice versa. We think we must be mssing something and keep looking for the it, failing to recognise what is right there in our grasp.

This is another reason I no longer see any need for a big institution church. It offers so much distraction from real life.

That's a great quote you have given us.

Must away now,
tony


'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'

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Relationship with a spiritual teacher

by Sue, Sydney, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 09:56 (320 days ago) @ Ynot

There is something in this Gospel reading that needs untangling here.  Jesus comes back to his home town.  Those to whom he was a stranger were impressed by the wisdom of his teaching.  Those to whom he was not a stranger, those who knew him previously as Josh the carpenter, the son of Joe and Mary, were not at all impressed.  Indeed, their reaction was strong enough to be described as feeling offended.

They would certainly have been amazed to hear that, a few centuries later, his followers would be proclaiming his divinity, announcing that he was 'one in being with the Father' and being described as the Son of God.

But why did they feel offended?

I'm glad you picked up on this too Cathy, when you say

You would expect that Jesus' former neighbours and his kinsfolk woud be proud of their local boy made good, or at the very least, if they are offended by him, it would be because he said or did something offensive!'

They had known Jesus as a young man, known his family.  Was the contrast between that young man, and the man who now came before them as a teacher, just too great for them?  The problem is, we can only guess.  Seeing the following that he was attracting, perhaps they saw him as the leader of a cult, of which they wanted no part.

In today's world there have been a number of very skillful spiritual gurus or teachers who have attracted thousands of seekers who have found  inspiration and encouragement for the journey.  And many of those teachers, particularly those recognized as teachers within their own country, have apparently been genuinely good people,  I say apparently, because often we know only the public face of a teacher.  What is happening with CSA issues, with the hidden lives of a few priests whom we held to be spiritual exemplars, is an example of this.

In recent years there have been revelations of scandals associated with some of the 'celebrity' gurus, when it has become obvious that these teachers have not been the enlightened sages they seemed to be.  This has lead to great deal of disillusion and cynicism towards living spiritual teachers among both spiritual seekers and the general population.

While I would not for one moment suggest that Jesus' private face differed significantly from his public one, the question remains as to why those who knew him well could not have faith in his teaching.  The most plausible reason I can think of was his encouraging men (and women?)  to leave home and follow him in a radical reorientation that would make the Kingdom of Heaven the focus of their lives - whether that kingdom was recognized as an earthly or spiritual one.  I suppose it would be like having a son coming home and encouraging brothers and sisters, and other members of the local community, to join him in a frugal, wandering lifestyle with a religious cult of which he was the leader!

But as you say, Tony,

'The start of the journey of faith for every least one of us can only be in leaving, in going out. Leaving is up to us: the place of our arrival is in God's hands. The only mistake we can make is to refuse to leave, to sit tight, holding fast to our traditions and protecting our accomplishments.'

On a deeper level, this reading throws up questions about the nature of the relationship between a spiritual teacher and one who looks for spiritual guidance.  Such a relationship is not a social one.  If it is to be effective, it must to be a spiritual one only.  If it dissipates into a social relationship, or intensifies into an actual sexual relationship, then it loses effectiveness on a spiritual plane.

With the current betrayals of trust by a few priests, how can we ourselves know who to trust in this delicate matter of spiritual guidance?

Tony, you offer one solution,

'In the absence of better guidance from knowledgeable leaders, christians today have to launch into the deep, alone or in small groups, with that trust in the Spirit which is the only touchstone of true spirituality.'

But, as one with deep gratitude towards those who have given me spiritual guidance along the way,  I don't think that relationship of spiritual guidance can be effectively replaced by 'going it alone' or even by a small group, unless it is under the leadership of a spiritually wise person.

I would be interested to hear what others think about this, what has been their experience.
Sue

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Aahh, Brian, thank you very much for your essay above...

by Bill Dowsley @, 'Wombeyan, NSW', Saturday, July 07, 2012, 11:10 (320 days ago) @ Sue

...which I have found very helpful in my searching.

We have similarities in our thinking, which is very comforting because I admire you, but, whilst you retain some belief, I have lost mine such is my contempt for the gutless hierarchy who are cruel, lie continually and, not least, betray our trust by shielding the unspeakable bastards who dare to take away the innocence of children.
Had any of these creatures, hierarchy and abusers, any bloody maleness at all in their worthless hides they would recognise their treachery to a Nature-given drive to love, provide for and protect.
But what chance have they had, from early adolescence in reality, to develop any guts?

You write, in part,".... I honestly do not care if Jesus ever existed, or did any of the things claimed for him, I increasingly think Jesus — and all the other Mystical Greats of Sacred Scripture such as Moses, Abraham, the Apostles, even Adam and Eve — are in a sense "figments of the imagination" of some of the great minds of ancient times who WERE genuinely "inspired" and what they delivered to us was not so much "the wisdom of these singular individuals" (like Jesus, Moses, Abraham, etc.) but "the wisdom of the Ages". Or the collective "theological and spiritual wisdom" of humankind at particular stages of our human evolution and history. These writers of Scripture were not historians and something to be likened to modern day journalists or archivists. They were writing theology and poetry, not historical tomes. They were the "film makers", "novelists", "story tellers" and "myth-makers" of the ancient world...."

This is helpful for me, thank you, mate.

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Relationship with a spiritual teacher

by Ynot @, Saturday, July 07, 2012, 22:35 (320 days ago) @ Sue

On a deeper level, this reading throws up questions about the nature of the relationship between a spiritual teacher and one who looks for spiritual guidance. Such a relationship is not a social one. If it is to be effective, it must to be a spiritual one only. If it dissipates into a social relationship, or intensifies into an actual sexual relationship, then it loses effectiveness on a spiritual plane.

Soooo true. There's a whole area to be explored here. Community/communion can be a false goal, and a trap - for the young, especially.


But, as one with deep gratitude towards those who have given me spiritual guidance along the way, I don't think that relationship of spiritual guidance can be effectively replaced by 'going it alone' or even by a small group, unless it is under the leadership of a spiritually wise person.

I wasn't thinking of spiritual guidance, but simply of having some kind of practice to promote spiritual life. At present sp. guidance is not practised much: participation in sacracramental 'worship' seems to be accepted as sufficient. I would hope that in time women and men of sufficient age, knowledge and practical experience would emerge as both leaders and guides. To be a guide presupposes that one has travelled the road oneself, and learnt the pitfalls probably through having fallen into them one way or another.

The odd thing is that across most of the world people do strive for spiritual growth in myriad ways, and the incidence of cults and dangerous practices is relatively rare. Pity if we are so concerned about safely following the right path that we don't even start out. Common sense is what keeps us balanced commonly.

Thanks for your contributions, Sue, and that late one last week too.

tony


'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'

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Relationship with a spiritual teacher

by Nick @, dianella, west australia, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 00:11 (320 days ago) @ Ynot

Tony, I look forward to your commentary on the Sunday's Gospel but maybe exploring some of the other readings could find expression of our longings. Take this Sunday's Responsorial Psalm. Here is one translation that I have found

Psalm 123
I lift up my eyes to you God.
You are sitting in Heaven.

Our eyes look to the Lord our God;
like men who are servants look to hands of their masters;
like a woman who is a servant looks to the hands of her mistress.

Have mercy on us, Lord, have mercy on us.
We have had more than enough contempt.

We have had more than enough contempt
from the proud people that are oppressing us.

Does this not ring true to the present that we are experiencing?

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Readings

by Ynot @, Monday, July 09, 2012, 08:42 (318 days ago) @ Nick

That psalm is very powerful, Nick. Thanks for that. Mostly (but not always) I focus on the gospel without following the direction that the first reading tends to impose. This is a sign of 'where I am at' rather than any sort of critique of the lectionary selections (although at times I have noticed that the first reading seems to be a poor fit with the particular gospel passage). For the present I am finding it is enough (for me) to limit my thoughts to the gospel, but I am very gratefuf to every contributor who expands the whole collection of ideas and reflections. So thanks again.

tony


'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'

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Presumption & Prejudice: Sunday Readings 14 B

by Jerome @, Sunday, July 08, 2012, 17:18 (319 days ago) @ Ynot

Thank you Tony!
Here is my tuppence worth......

“He was amazed at their lack of faith.”
He was not able to perform any mighty deed there, because the people did not trust him, had no faith in him.
So ‘mighty deeds’ seem to only be possible when there is great faith and trust, when the people really want them.
In this case the people did not trust him.
They were not open to new ideas for whatever reasons.
In another message Helen provided a link to an article by Ron Rolheiser entitled “Labels and Truth”
The people were busily making judgments about Jesus that could well be seen to be labelling and that got in the way of hearing or seeking ‘truth’.

So ‘mighty deeds’ are possible when we commit ourselves to values that Jesus taught; when we are open to change in light of these values; when we seek out ways of applying those values in modern life.
The challenge then becomes what relevant actions we can take, should take.
I once attended a retreat a long time ago. It pointed to a faith based on 3 cornerstones:
Prayer – Study – Action
This reading seems to point us to the importance of being open to further learning, the search for understanding and making sense of our lives. If we are not open to learning then we are living static lives and we vegetate!
So we renew and refresh our intentions to seek a better understanding of where we are, where society is heading and how creation is being fulfilled.
I also like the ‘See – Judge – Act’ method of reviewing where we are and where we need to go. LINK, LINK
It is a means of responding to the needs of our times in light of Gospel values.
We are challenged to act.

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Presumption & Prejudice: Sunday Readings 14 B

by Ynot @, Monday, July 09, 2012, 08:35 (318 days ago) @ Jerome

This reading seems to point us to the importance of being open to further learning, the search for understanding and making sense of our lives. If we are not open to learning then we are living static lives and we vegetate!
So we renew and refresh our intentions to seek a better understanding of where we are, where society is heading and how creation is being fulfilled.

Thanks again, Jerome. It's quite a challenge in every walk of life, but especially when it comes to family life. That's where identity and custom coalesce most closely and in how members relate to one another. And of course children are always new and mostly refuse to be imprisoned in the ways of the parents. Outside the family circle people have to make a living or follow a vocation and they are practically forced to be open to further learning.

Then you look at religion and it is rooted more in family than in the world of work. Hence there is a natural bias towards 'conservative' - to hold to traditions. But the Jesus sent his disciples OUT to plant seeds of new ideas and new forms of relationship, so...


It's a pity we didn't get stuck into Brian's question: Do we need an institution? Actually some ideas are germinating in my mind, and I might yet have something to offer.

tony


'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'

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Do we need an institution?

by Sue, Sydney, Monday, July 09, 2012, 09:12 (318 days ago) @ Ynot

It's a pity we didn't get stuck into Brian's question: Do we need an institution? Actually some ideas are germinating in my mind, and I might yet have something to offer


Go for it Tony. It is an important question which I resisted responding to when Brian raised it. Maybe a new string? Important as knowing about the whole extent of the sexual abuse crisis the Church is facing, I'd be glad to have something else to ponder as well.

Sue

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Did Jesus need an institution? Is that what he came to set up?

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, July 09, 2012, 10:43 (318 days ago) @ Ynot

I'm still mulling on the question myself. The commentary I've just chosen today by Fr Peter Day causes me to keep wondering. I've also found myself reflecting back on Tony Lowes' commentaries about "the kingdom" or "the realm". When Jesus spoke of establishing "the kingdom" did that require some structure as in an expression like "Institution" or was it something more like the "informal structure" that we might find in a large and widely scattered extended family? Is "the kingdom", or "the realm as Tony Lowes describes it, more a diverse collection of individuals who are characterised by a "culture" or "set of values" rather than something more structured which we tend to think of when we use expressions like an "Institution"?


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

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