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The Discussion on the Four Corners Program (Main Forum)
by desi 
, Australia, Monday, July 02, 2012, 17:46 (326 days ago)
Four Corners - Unholy Silence
8.32pm - 9.19pm
ABC1
Geoff Thompson investigates claims that the Catholic Church has covered up allegations of sexual abuse made against priests and brothers in Australia. Is a national inquiry needed?
lockedA Reminder - Four Corners Tonight 8.30
by curlie que , Monday, July 02, 2012, 18:13 (326 days ago) @ desi
Definately a national inquiry needed - asap,
locked
A Reminder - Four Corners Tonight 8.30
by Roy , Monday, July 02, 2012, 18:19 (326 days ago) @ curlie que
edited by Roy, Monday, July 02, 2012, 18:34
I think it clashes with the bike racing on SBS 
...I'll have to tape it desi 
lockedA Reminder - Four Corners Tonight 8.30
by Ynot , Monday, July 02, 2012, 18:52 (325 days ago) @ Roy
Goodluck with the bikes, Roy.
Everyone else is going to be on the lookout for the lad from Lodden Valley.
Don't be nervous, mate. I'll be in touch later.
tony
'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'
lockednervous ......me nervous?
I've packed me swag and my utes fueled and pointing at the back gate 
I can only hope I'm on the cutting room floor and they couldn't use it.
I'm just one of many many they interviewed.
But as I said to MaryAnn Jolley, I trust you to use what you need to get the best result for those that come later ....was all I asked and damn the embarrassment.
....to be safe I'd better go find the jaffle iron 
otherwise a bloke could starve.
locked
WELL DONE !!!! - Four Corners Tonight 8.30
by Jim B , Australia, Monday, July 02, 2012, 21:36 (325 days ago) @ Roy
I know how tough it is to reveal your hurts in a situation like those 4-Cornersinterviews and I acknowledge the courage and strength of all victims and families who participated.
Thank you to all, especially "Roy." Now, do take comfort in your achievement of putting real pictures of the situations in front of a national audience.
Next, we need to swamp Mr Baillieu's inquiry with more information than they can handle!
lockedWELL DONE !!!! - Four Corners Tonight 8.30
Jim B and all
I was going to just go to bed and post in the morning but decided to do this so i would not think about it after finially catching up my sleep and didn't want ruin it thinking about this through the night. How can Pell sit there in Rome and state that he didn't know the truth of this meeting, he is treating everyone as a dumb arse nobody if he thinks that we believe him. The letter that went to Armidale that was written to the then bishop shows how stupid they are and they certainly didn't think of the saying "Don't write anything down on paper that may incriminate you". they certainly didn't think that someone would get hold of this letter thats how dumb they are.These wonderful famalies that are suffering and will suffer until they are sitting at the right hand of God Almighty how brave they have been to speak up and i hope now that more people that are just stuck in their beliefs thinking that these things should stay behind four wall will go to bed tonight thinking differntly, that all the Catholics that are out there that are in denial about his crime will be thinking that we are all not lying. Hoping that all of you out there are SHOCKED TO THE CORE OF YOUR BODY, not thinking what do you expect of these people, we all must stay SHOCKED, not be BITTER this will not do us anygood, so to all my friend out there stay strong we are the SAME, we must all stick together and keep up the fight for JUSTICE>
God Bless all and try to have a good night sleep, if you are restless say the Hail Mary it works for me.
Love Macbee
lockedA Reminder - Four Corners Tonight 8.30
by Ynot , Monday, July 02, 2012, 21:31 (325 days ago) @ desi
Powerful. Aimed squarely at national enquiry which would involve major figures. I wonder what will be response. Will key clergy mentioned have more to say. Silence seems not an option. But I'm not holding me breath.
Roy, Thanks for your efforts to bring the truth to light.
Now get out there and split some more firewood
tony
'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'
locked
This story is not going to go away...
by Brian Coyne 
, LINDEN, NSW, Monday, July 02, 2012, 21:40 (325 days ago) @ Ynot
Yes, congratulations from us as well, Roy. Also to all the other people who appeared on the program to put their case. This whole scandal of clerical sexual abuse, and more so the attempts of people in high places in the institution to duck shove and try and protect the reputation of the institution in the eyes of the "little people" and "simple people", is a long, long way from going away. Eventually there will be some kind of national enquiry although if Abbott gets elected that's likely to be some parliaments away.
![[image]](http://catholica.com.au/images/CatholicaICO_30x30.jpg)
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedThis story is not going to go away...
by desi , Australia, Monday, July 02, 2012, 21:57 (325 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
Another shocking story of CSA and a scandalous cover-up.
Well done, Roy and all those who spoke out, I have no idea how anyone has the courage and strength to do it.
I would like to know why Brian Lucas could not speak for himself.
Following Cardinal Pell’s words re the Salesian priest who is holed up in Rome, I was left wondering, if he (Pell) is called to answer questions by the Victorian Inquiry whether he will ‘return to face the music’.?
I think Pell’s words (and his whole demeanour) spoke very clearly of the man who they describe as ‘Australia’s leading Catholic’.
‘We set up the Melbourne Response and the Towards Healing Response and I think that when the provisions in those responses are followed, I think they’re quite adequate.
I think we have a-er, basically, apart from individual lapses, we have an adequate story to tell in the way we’ve helped victims.’
What a choice of words!
IMO his was a totally INADEQUATE response.
lockedA much longer version of the Pell interview can be seen here:
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/06/28/3535079.htm
lockedIf anyone ever doubted Brian's descrition of Pell as the ultimate politician then they should listen to the full interview (linked above).
It's amazing how much he 'didn't know', 'doesn't know', 'not responsible' etc etc.
--------------
Re my question above:
I would like to know why Brian Lucas could not speak for himself.
It's answered in the video interview:
Interviewer:
'Of course the difficulty for us is that we put these questions to the Church and they've put you up to answer them and nobody else, such as Brian Lucas. So all we can do is to take yours as the Church's position on the matter'.
lockedPell's interview in full!
by Ynot , Monday, July 02, 2012, 22:49 (325 days ago) @ desi
I would like to know why Brian Lucas could not speak for himself.
They might think it's enough for now to leave it to Pell, Desi, but if it was me I wouldn't like to be sitting on a time bomb lke this one. One thing to brush off the 4 corners questions, but in a royal commission there would need to be some resolution to the opposing reports from that three-priest board of enquiry. Either Fr F did say he had done this and this, as is written in the letter to Armidale, or he didn't as the other two claim. OR someone's telling porkies.
And anyway, Pell said he'd back the three priests - not knowing they are divided in what they report was admitted.
Bring on the Commission.
'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'
lockedI would like to know why Brian Lucas could not speak for himself.
They might think it's enough for now to leave it to Pell, Desi, but if it was me I wouldn't like to be sitting on a time bomb lke this one. One thing to brush off the 4 corners questions, but in a royal commission there would need to be some resolution to the opposing reports from that three-priest board of enquiry. Either Fr F did say he had done this and this, as is written in the letter to Armidale, or he didn't as the other two claim. OR someone's telling porkies.And anyway, Pell said he'd back the three priests - not knowing they are divided in what they report was admitted.
interesting hey. Hope they telecast the questioning ....now I'm dillusional 
and thanks guys
nighnight Macbee 
I'm crashing too
lockedPell's interview in full!
Well done, Roy, for fronting up and speaking on national TV.
lockedThis story is not going to go away...
by Helen , The other side of Australia, Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 00:51 (325 days ago) @ desi
I was amazed at Pell's 'adequate' response as well. Adequate is just above 'failed' in an exam situation - so I suppose he was telling the truth when you think of it.
Roy, you came over really well and controlled in spite of what you have been through.
A hard hitting program - and I wonder how this is going to be handled by the Archdiocese in question.
Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ
lockedThis story is not going to go away...
by curlie que , Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 14:25 (324 days ago) @ Helen
Be swept under the carpet if the truth is known - can't have the laity thinking the worst of the clergy can we - be an uproar - can't help but wonder why the laity haven't fled in droves in utter disgust 
lockedThis story is not going to go away...
by curlie que , Monday, July 02, 2012, 22:07 (325 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
Well done. 
lockedThis story is not going to go away...
Thanks to those very brave people who appeared on this programme. The depth of pain, especially at the betrayal of their trust in both the Church and the justice system, tears at my heart and makes me determined to write letters to my local Members and others asking for a deep enquiry. Not much use sending a "Letter to the Editor" of the Catholic Leader but I might try again.
J A Holznagel
lockedThis story is not going to go away...
by AnnieJ , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 10:43 (325 days ago) @ judith
You have said it all for me, Judith.
Thanks for your courage and honesty, Roy, and all who took part. 
Annie
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch
by desi , Australia, Monday, July 02, 2012, 22:38 (325 days ago) @ desi
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/06/28/3535079.htm
There are also additional links on the main page to watch.
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch
I have just watched the whole of the interview with Pell and my disgust has grown. On what grounds is he called "the most senior Catholic in Australia"? He is not the head of the Australian Bishops' Council, nor is he the oldest Catholic(my father beats him by 30 years), so why apply this term?
Three other points came out.
He said "Whatever the facts are, we have to face them" but did not say much about how he tried to ascertain the facts and veracity thereof.
In two instances he claimed that the matters were not his area of responsibility. If he is the senior Catholic authority in Australia, why not?
He quotes this in the case of "Fr XYZ" (his term) and again re the Salesians in Australia. Do the religious Orders have no remit from him to operate here and under what circumstances could he intervene, if not in a clearly criminal matter such as this?
He also said the he doesn't know about the Armidale situation. Frankly, I don't believe that and ask "if not, why not?" Surely in such a serious case, he would make some inquiries for his own information at least.
Thanks, ABC, for this programme. May it open floodgates of response demanding action and that those who take the reins also take responsibility for the results.
thanks especially to those brave and aching people who spoke so freely about the lasting pain with which they live.
J A Holznagel
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch
One of the interesting things for me about this program was that we know that the Australian bishops obtained an exemption from the "secret of the Holy Office" in 1996 so that they could report allegations of sexual abuse to the police. But it seems that in the cases referred to in the program, they did not think they had to report any abuse allegations that were then current. At least in NSW, that can amount to a criminal offence under the S.346 Crimes Act, and even before it was introduced, it was misprision of felony under the common law.
Are there going to be some Australian Monsignor Lynnes?
lockedChildren come first
by Ynot , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 08:37 (325 days ago) @ James
... it seems that in the cases referred to in the program, they did not think they had to report any abuse allegations that were then current. At least in NSW, that can amount to a criminal offence under the S.346 Crimes Act, and even before it was introduced, it was misprision of felony under the common law.
Are there going to be some Australian Monsignor Lynnes?
I reckon if it was a member of parliament, or a trade union official, or an upstart billionaire from the wrong side of the tracks, the "investigations" would be underway by the time the reporters got to the first news conference today. But I suppose churches are not in the same paddock when it comes to hunting fair game. Perhaps they're not good eating: probably leave a bitter taste in the mouth, even for voracious crown prosecutors. But that's no excuse. CHILDREN WILL NOT BE PROTECTED NOW OR IN THE FUTURE UNLESS THIS ULCER ON THE BODY OF SOCIETY IS CAUTERIZED. And if it means the end of the institution and its fake exclusiveness and its pretentions to holiness, then so be it. Children come first!
'TonyL
"A post is a free gift, and it will go where it pleases."'
lockedChildren come first
by Roy , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 09:14 (325 days ago) @ Ynot
edited by Roy, Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 09:43
they are vermin and so after you shoot one all you can do is hang them on the fence as a warning to others
the only positive I can see is you would be taking a large chunk of carbon out of the cycle by burying one.
nothing else too say ....watch what happens now!
big bloody zero I'm guessing ...I'm gunna give thenm til xmas then do it myself if nothings happened.
enoughs enough in anyones language.
I'm off to see my shrink now ...he doesn't have any answers either ....how can we live with oursellves knowing this is going on in the background.
that program last night left 40 moinutes out of my interview ....and my wife didn't get a look in.
the attention span of the community can't go there ....I know now that we will never get heard.
many many more were lined up also ....so so many and yet the program let the victims down by focusing on Pell
they are all to blame ...the fucvking whole catholic church if they allow this to continue.
yeah you are right ...I'm angry 
...appears from what Pell said there is no issue
Nothing to worry about!
Just leave it to our spiritual leaders and everything will be kewl.
is a damn shame for our kids and their kids if our community just lets this go!
lockedRome wasn't built in a day — and it isn't collapsing in one day either...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 10:59 (325 days ago) @ Roy
Roy, there is an old saying that "Rome wasn't built in a day". Self-evidently it isn't collapsing in a single day either. The Four Corners program we have just viewed is another milestone along the way of this slow collapse of a feudal empire. My gut sense is that like the recent trial of Monsignor William Lynn in Philadelphia, or the various enquiries in Ireland and other places in Europe, this is another key step in greater accountability being forced on the institution. It is also another small but vital step in exposing the myth of ontological change and superiority in the priestly caste.
Many priests and bishops I am sure are acutely embarrassed and humiliated about what is being revealed today via these various enquiries and media reports around the world. Despite that there is still a cohort amongst them, and also amongst the lay church, who desperately need "authority figures" in their lives who they see as "purer than the driven snow". Not even a thermonuclear explosion would "turn on the lights" in their minds. These people need certitude in their lives even more desperately then they need Jesus himself in their lives. As James and others wrote at the time of Pope Benedict's response to the people of Ireland, this is still a long way from over.
The excruciatingly long, slow process all of you victims of clerical abuse have been engaged in has been an important fight not only in the task of extracting justice and compassion from an institution that has lost much of its compassion. It is also playing a vital role in exposing much of the bankruptcy of their theologies, beliefs and propaganda in other areas. Hang in there, mate. You, and all the victims who have found the courage to speak up, have been engaged in work that is more important than merely the outworking of your own pain, humiliation and suffering.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedOne of the most revealing things in the program...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 11:07 (325 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
One of the most intriguing but almost "under the radar" things about this Four Corners' program has been the admission that the bishops collectively seem to have nominated Pell as their spokeperson for this program. That in itself has been intriguing. It could be interpreted that they were all too scared or embarrassed to speak for themselves. It might also be interpreted that they were shovelling the responsibility onto the shoulders of the one who most desperately wants to be seen as the leader of institutional Catholicism in Australia. I suggest that is an important development that might be worth watching.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedOne of the most revealing things in the program...
by desi , Australia, Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 14:26 (325 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
That was one of the things which struck me whilest watching the programme and I posted the question:
I would like to know why Brian Lucas could not speak for himself.
A little while later I watched the full Pell interview and posted:
It's answered in the video interview:
Interviewer:
'Of course the difficulty for us is that we put these questions to the Church and they've put you up to answer them and nobody else, such as Brian Lucas. So all we can do is to take yours as the Church's position on the matter'.
So they did attempt to interview Brian Lucas (and no doubt the other two priests involved in the interview) but with no success.
As has been said so many, many times before, if you have nothing to hide and have 'truth' on your side wouldn't you want to stand up and face the world - I know that i would.
One other point worth noting, given the option of the main players in any type of situation/scandal being interviewed on camera/face-to-face or the organisation putting up a 'spokesman' to be interviewed, which one do you think that most go for?
Co-incidentally, in this case, there was an added bonus for the organisation - the spokesman nominated 'happened' to be out of the country and the interview had to be done by videophone.
Anyone who has ever interviewed will say that doing it face-to-face v by video is like chalk and cheese.
Mind you, for all Pell's political 'savvy' he did not, for me, come over as someone with any real 'soul' or compassion for the situation , seeing him sitting there I really could imagine him sitting in front of the Fosters. Quite chilling!
lockedOne of the most revealing things in the program...
desi
I have only just stopped now to check in i have been answering my phone and talking all day about this, everyone is in shock and two school friends that i have not seen or spoken to for over forty years rang me to say that they now believe me and all others, they were so angry with Pell and his smugnes and so blaza about the whole thing and yes i could see him sitting there with Chrissie and Anthony telling them to take him to court. this is not going to go away now that the whole country knows about the deaths of these beautiful men, everyone that is poke to was so upset about the beautiful daughter shattered and wondering what her life and what would her Fathera life have been like if this didn't happen to him this is one thing that i had to get over and it took a long time wondering who was i really and then to have to let go of this and really start a new life was just terrible never knowing who i was ment to be.
God Bless
macbee
lockedOne of the most revealing things in the program...
by Roy , Friday, July 06, 2012, 12:10 (322 days ago) @ Macbee
....have to let go of this and really start a new life was just terrible never knowing who i was ment to be.
macbee
A caring member of the human race is all that is required Macbee
and you are already doing that!
A long way ahead of a lot of others from what I can see.
Nice day here to get a little sun ...just go soak some up Macbee and feel that warmth and just know you are a good person.
If everyone was like yourself ...there would be no problem!!
lockedOne of the most revealing things in the program...
Also there was no mention of any attempt to interview Bishop Manning.. ?? As the recipient of the 'telling' letter, it seems to me an "obvious".
lockedDisgraced Father F lives happily in Armidale
by Roy , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 14:28 (325 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
A DEFROCKED priest who occupies a prominent position in the Armidale community featured last night in a Four Corners expose of child sex abuse within the Catholic Church.
http://www.armidaleexpress.com.au/news/local/news/general/disgraced-father-f-lives-happ...
I see the local rags have picked up the story already.
...........
I just had a meeting with the Greater City Of Bendigos Social welfare officer about why the shire is in bed and assisting Centacare Bendigo when they have been involved in the hiding of paedophiles.
She is calling a round table meeting later in the week with all interested partys present ..I suggested 'no legal people' should be allowed.
Which she agreed.....just those interested in the welfare of kids
sitting on your hands won't get it done you know ....proactive I believe it's called
Some would call it shit stirring ...I prefer 'raising awareness'
lockedDisgraced Father F lives happily in Armidale
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 14:33 (325 days ago) @ Roy
Roy, you do make me laugh with the directness of your language. I think you are a simple "shit stirrer" and you ought be proud of it! I'm merely a "possum stirrer" in comparison to yourself.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedChildren come first
Let's hope there are some Oz versions of Msgr Lynn and soon. Cardinal Pell is getting caught in a very tight place, as, if he wants to claim authority, then he has to take responsibility. The saying "the buck stops here" applies to the one at the top of any tree and it is from there that action has to come and, if that action brings him down, then so be it.
If we have to dismiss and prosecute every person in the Church structure who has not reported claims brought to their notice, then sell every asset the Church has, then so be it, and soon.
Too many good people have suffered too much, from too many, for too long, and time is up for those responsible for their pain to dodge the issue.
J A Holznagel
lockedstarts with guys like the head bloke at CentaCare in bendigo
centaCare is the catholic community help centre where I went and had my first interview.
They knew exactly what had happened as I had told them from the outset that I was raped.
He threatened to sue me for slander twice now. I won't mention his name Brian I dropped in and invited him to watch the show though ...I'm just like that
I dropped into the cathedral yesterday also and was talking with an old bloke Peter.
Peter tells me that he is from a group that has been formed of 'old blokes' who have been orgamnised to have someone standing security at all times while the cathedral is open.
I asked him what he thought the 'owners' were doing ...and were they 'swanning around somewhere while he's wasting his retirement'
I asked to watch the program last night and wished him well
So many people being conned in this hey?
lockedRoy, I don't wish to embarrass you..........
by Bill Dowsley , 'Wombeyan, NSW', Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 15:05 (325 days ago) @ Roy
.........but you came across very well last evening.
You have a strong, manly face and you answered directly.
Well done, mate.
lockedRoy, I don't wish to embarrass you..........
by Roy , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 15:14 (325 days ago) @ Bill Dowsley
edited by Roy, Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 02:17
Thank you Bill ...hopefully I don't embarrass us aussie blokes ...I know I'm a rough head who needs a haircut ..but self has been secondary for a while now
here's a piece of the interview uncut which my daughter filmed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s5HhMAcD3c&feature=channel&list=UL
lockedif you are in the mood to assist
by Roy , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 15:45 (325 days ago) @ Roy
edited by Roy, Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 16:02
and look along the top for the 'How You Can Help' button
.....just a few clicks is all it takes
and not only but also ..survivors needing assistance with submissions to the inquiry will find that help here.
(sorry Brian I'm guessing hawking is not allowed 
)
lockedRoy, Do not underestimate the impact that you (and others) have by being fearless and passionate in speaking out.
Although it is very understandable that there should be anger (justifiable anger at that) but I couldn't help but think, while watching the programme last night, that the pen/word is so much mightier than the sword.
ALL the victims and their families came over as caring, compassionate people (very much in contrast to ....).
lockedif you are in the mood to assist
by Helen , The other side of Australia, Friday, July 06, 2012, 11:03 (322 days ago) @ Roy
Signed and passed it on. At last support for the victims like a tusami waiting to hit shore!
Let us light a candle and say to the dark, we beg to differ
lockedif you are in the mood to assist
by Debb , Friday, July 06, 2012, 14:31 (322 days ago) @ Roy
Like Helen, signed up.
lockedif you are in the mood to assist
by desi , Australia, Friday, July 06, 2012, 16:56 (322 days ago) @ Debb
locked
This kind of 'hawking' is most welcome, Roy. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. I've signed, and I hope everyone who visits Catholica will do the same.
Milly
Musica delenit bestiam feram.
lockedif you are in the mood to assist
Thanks also to the techically gifted who linked this petition under the Change.org umbrella as well, so it can be spread around the world & the Internet...
lockedif you are in the mood to assist
Thanks for the opportunity to do something, however small.
J A Holznagel
lockedRoy, I don't wish to embarrass you..........
Bill
I was trying to put some words together and you have said as i thought myself Roy you are georgous and handsome and you were brilliant i am so proud of you as i am with all the other men they said it like it was brutle as i was you were all so honest i thank you for that people have to hear it as it was.
macbee
lockedRoy, I don't wish to embarrass you..........
by Ian Lawther , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 20:18 (324 days ago) @ Bill Dowsley
Roy you were not there for your looks you were there because of your ability to tell the truth. A thing the one "true church" has forgotten about. Thanks for your efforts in awareness raising mate.
Cheers Ian Lawther
lockedRoy, I don't wish to embarrass you..........
by Roy , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 21:09 (324 days ago) @ Ian Lawther
well i'll tell you again Ian ...as I did on the phone.
GET OFF THE NET!!
if I tell Pam and your eye doctor they will beat your hide black and blue!!!
all he's got left really is listening ...and he's not doing that at all!!
probably is what I like about him!
lockedRoy, I don't wish to embarrass you..........
by desi , Australia, Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 08:11 (324 days ago) @ Bill Dowsley
...but this is what the SMH says in response to the programme:
The saga has intensified calls for a royal commission into sexual abuse in the Catholic Church and allegations of widespread cover-ups.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/calls-for-royal-commission-over-alleged-co...
lockedFull text of Armidale letter
by AnnieJ , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 15:59 (325 days ago) @ desi
edited by AnnieJ, Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 14:14
Here's the link to the full text of the 1992 letter from St Mary's Cathedral Sydney to the Bishop of Armidale, re the sexual abuse disclosed in last night's 4 Corners program:
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/documents/abuse2012/Letter_1992.pdf
It's a PDF file, so may not open for some.
The date is 1992, so it predates the 1996 change in policy re 'pontifical secrecy' (for Australia only). Those involved in the enquiry were still obliged by canon (church) law not to disclose the information to anyone outside the Committee. See earlier forum discussions about the Vatican law,'Crimen sollicitationis'.
http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=101633
It would seem that Vatican law as it stood in 1992 required them not to go to the police.
Annie
lockedFull text of Armidale letter
by AnnieJ , Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 16:09 (325 days ago) @ AnnieJ
This is the excerpt from the transcript which explains the Armidale letter:
For legal reasons the accused priest is knows as Father F. He worked in Moree and later in Parramatta, where it is alleged he abused a number of altar boys in the 1980s.
But it was not until 1992 that the Catholic Church ordered an investigation and called Father F to a meeting with three senior priests at St Mary's Cathedral.
Conflicting stories
Audio: Priests accused of sex abuse cover-up (AM)
Australia's most prominent Catholic, Archbishop Cardinal George Pell, told Four Corners Father F did not make any admissions in that meeting.
"The file note of that meeting shows that - does not show that he made any admission and that is the recollection of the three priests who were actually at that," he said.
But Four Corners has obtained a report written by one of those present in the meeting, Father Wayne Peters, which clearly states that the accused priest did make admissions of criminal sexual assault.
Annie
lockedFull text of Armidale letter
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 23:58 (324 days ago) @ AnnieJ
The entire tone of the letter shows the almost complete focus was on trying to protect the reputation and prestige of the institution and there is seemingly no concern for the actual harm done to the victims. Admittedly this sort of correspondence from the Judicial Vicar to his Bishop was primarily focused on how to deal with this particular offender priest. This quote though sums up the focus on the fear they had of scandal and harm to the institution and its reputation...
As there is no statute of limitations on charges being laid in the matter of sexual abuse of children, the possibility always remains that one or some of the boys involved may bring criminal charges again the [name deleted] with subsequent harm to the priesthood and the Church.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedIt's intriguing how a letter like this came to light...
by Brian Coyne , LINDEN, NSW, Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 00:05 (324 days ago) @ AnnieJ
It is intriguing how a letter like this, that must have been buried in archives for years, must have come to public light? As James wrote recently there must be oodles of letters like this buried in archives around the world and the prospect today, with modern communications and forensic techniques, more and more of it will be brought out into the full glare of public scrutiny. There are going to be many more Monsignor Lynn's before this is all eventually put to bed.
Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]
lockedI can see the headline "Vatican Buys 600hp Woodchipper???"
by Roy , Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 00:35 (324 days ago) @ Brian Coyne
edited by Roy, Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 01:08
and dare I say that a few shredders are working overtime.
I doubt any other org would get such a big lead time before the traps arrive with a half ton key
But then again they are special aren't they.
I know you are talking about the Fr F part of 4Crns but please consider this
http://www.richardsipe.com/reports/sipe_report_XX.htm
and the timing of the same.
I filed suit in California in 2003, and the Salesian Order responded by calling me a liar, and vowing to make an example out of me. I became a SNAP leader, and held many events and protests for dozens of victims all over North California.
The Salesians hired several law firms, and promised to destroy me in Superior Court. They deposed my wife, brothers and sisters, friends, neighbors, aunts, uncles, cousins, old classmates, fellow workers, and my ailing father. They hired public spokespersons and made public statements calling me a liar, and a sick disturbed man
You'd have to be a fool to take them to court ...your family would hate you more!
then there is this of course....check the timing.
He said he was in the US in 2004, when Dunklin's report stirred up a hornet's nest in the US. He heard the allegation as ''chatter at the Catholic University of America in Washington.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/salesians-accused-journalist-20110830-1jk2h.html#ixzz...
also consider when the Salesians renamed their website in australia as SNAP
http://snap.donbosco.asn.au/index.php/en/
thumbing their noses are they?
lockedI wasn't aware of this until yesterday.
by Roy , Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 01:31 (324 days ago) @ Roy
edited by Roy, Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 01:49
Since 1937, the Salesians have been entrusted with the Vatican's publishing operation, including administration of the Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano.
from here (hope you can open it ....tell me please if you have trouble)
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:PGqA7xVrpmYJ:www.vides.us/newsletters/v2...
is where Fr Julian Fox is hey?
and this
"We're not complicated people," Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras, another Salesian in a high place, told NCR June 25. "Our spirit is family, especially with the young and the poor."
(same site as above)
Wasn't he the bloke who said....
Finally, a certain Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras (reported to be a leading candidate to be the next Pope) is quoted by NCR writer John Allen as saying that attention to the pedophile crisis in the media detracts from attention to the war in the Middle East, that the money in the suits should not be given to lawyers or to the victims but to a fund for spirituality, that every time money mixes with justice it becomes unjust, and that he would be prepared to go to jail rather than harm one of his priests.
Read more: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2002/05/Clueless-Curial-Arrogance.aspx#ixzz1zZ...
just curious but please tell me that part of the initiation into this brotherhood isn't burning a holy picture of the Virgin Mary in your hand
lockedI wasn't aware of this until yesterday.
by Debb , Wednesday, July 04, 2012, 07:29 (324 days ago) @ Roy
Roy, the stench just goes on and on an on. Just saw the 4-Corners doco on replay and want to congratulate you on your honest and courageous part in it.
lockedI wasn't aware of this until yesterday.
Me too. On ya Roy.
lockedIt's intriguing how a letter like this came to light...
Brian,
The Church is leaking like a sieve, and that always happens when there is gross dishonesty in any institution.
That letter could only have been taken from the Church archives. Someone leaked it, and all praise to them. Now, it is a question of the flood if there is a Royal Commission. I'd be intrigued to see the letters that passed between the Church and the Vatican over the Bede Heather matter in 1994, and the subsequent granting of an exemption for Australian bishops to report clergy sex crimes against children to the police in 1996.
I have a pretty good idea what it will contain: damning evidence against Cardinals Josef Ratzinger, Tarcisio Bertone, Sudano and Castrillon Hoyos, not to mention Blessed John Paul the Grate. The subsequent history with Ireland (1997), Britain (2001) and the United States (2002) all point to a deliberate policy of cover up that these and others perpetrated.
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch with TRANSCRIPT.
by desi , Australia, Tuesday, July 03, 2012, 16:04 (325 days ago) @ desi
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch....A mystery.
by desi , Australia, Thursday, July 05, 2012, 15:45 (323 days ago) @ desi
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/06/28/3535079.htm
There are also additional links on the main page to watch.
GEOFF THOMPSON: Kevin Lee says that incident was reported to superiors. A church investigation was finally ordered. On the 3rd of September 1992 Father F was called to a meeting at St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney. What happened at the meeting is crucial to understanding the major flaws in the way the Catholic Church deals in-house with allegations of sexual abuse. The meeting with Father F was presided over by three senior Catholic priests - Father Brian Lucas, Father Wayne Peters and Father John Usher.
CARDINAL GEORGE PELL: The file note of that meeting shows... does not show that he made any admission - and that is the recollection of the three priests who were actually at that. They were dissatisfied with his credibility; they thought he represented some sort of danger for the future, and although he'd made no admissions to them, they suggested to the Bishop who followed it that he should be stood down.
What I don't understand is if Fr F made no admissions then why did the 'panel recommend that he be 'stood down'. (It was obviously serious enough for the bishop to do just that).
Also, surely George Pell must have asked why the three priests were 'dissatisfied with his(Fr F's) credibility', when he agreed to act as spokesman (he had obviously done homework on the case).
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch....A mystery.
by AnnieJ , Thursday, July 05, 2012, 16:03 (323 days ago) @ desi
Perhaps they had two sets of files, Desi, like some Italian banks have two sets of accounts.
Annie
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch....A mystery.
by desi , Australia, Thursday, July 05, 2012, 16:27 (323 days ago) @ AnnieJ
Sad to say, AnnieJ, your 'Smileys' were not appropriate!
This is EXACTLY what the enquiry into the Irish diocese of Cloyne found, one report had been submitted to Rome and another (the true facts) was on the diocesan files.
Your 'fictional' example has a factual background!
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch....A mystery.
by AnnieJ , Thursday, July 05, 2012, 16:53 (323 days ago) @ desi
Act in haste ......
I meant to put some of these
and should also have put some of these.
Those poor little boys, and their brave, brave parents.
How could anyone with a heart not do everything possible to make up to them for the tragedy they've suffered.
One of the most shocking things is the hardness of heart shown by those who should be their strongest supporters.
Annie
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch....A mystery.
Annie, it is not only the hardness of heart shown by those supposed to be seeking the truth, but the distance they seem to be from Jesus. And they are the ones trying to tell us how to live good lives!!!
Would it be any use writing an open letter to Cardinal Pell and sending it to one of the Sydney newspapers to publish, asking him to come home, face whatever has to occur, and take the responsibility for the actions or lack thereof of his minions?
As well as any official actions, perhaps we, as Catholics, need to throw down the gauntlet and confront him with the vileness of these abuses and that we do not care a tinker's damn about the "good name of the church" or preservation of reputations and assets, but we do care very deeply about the pain and suffering caused to the vulnerable young and to their families and friends.
We want to see the leaders of the church take the rap, especially Benedict,(but he is probably too far gone to be put on trial) and bring some form of honesty to the whole sordid mess.
"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
J A Holznagel
lockedFour Corners - Link to watch....A mystery.
by Roy , Friday, July 06, 2012, 09:08 (322 days ago) @ judith
annie you will find few survivors who want pity ....most just want to be heard and have it stop.
the big point is that the vatican hasn't changed the rules ...and it is still going on regardless of what Angela said the other day.
Go to the police she kept saying .....I did that many times but being the paeds were hidedn over seas what Angela says now wouldn't help me or Luke anyway.
Nothings changed ...listen to Angela again ..the church has no interest in assisting victims and will ciontinue to protect these paeds.
check your newspaper today and see how much the church is cooperating.
Where is their duty of care to the communities they plant these paeds in.
bullshit I reckon!!
when this spills out the question will need to be asked did this guy return to his support group /whatever you'd like to call it? Is the normal pattern and needs to be looked at.
lockededucate the masses maybe....
by Roy , Friday, July 06, 2012, 09:31 (322 days ago) @ Roy
edited by Roy, Friday, July 06, 2012, 10:01
what about running a Clarke and Dawe or Rubbery Figures style short program straight after the news every night.
Just do a piece of BrokenRites each night ....in a 400 part series
....for starters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwUu3qHkY_I&feature=relmfu
Bills got his jaffle iron I see
"Take precautions, become white today!"
locked
