Welcome to an excitingly different way of looking at faith and spirituality...
www.google.com


Catholica Web
Spiritual Marketplace
Why Marx was Right

GOOGLE ADVERTISING
Catholica does not necessarily endorse these advertisers. Please use appropriate caution and notify us of inappropriate ads.

DONATE NOW!

Today's lead commentary:
Lead Commentary Headline
Catholica Spiritual Marketplace

Catholica Spiritual Marketplace
Links to Other Websites
Forum IndexCatholica Home Page
Register to Post in the Forum
Dr Paul Collins' latest book is available in our Marketplace
Dr Paul Collins' latest book is available in our Marketplace
Dr Paul Collins' latest book is available in our Marketplace
Linear

Chris geraghty's new book, another review. (Main Forum)

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Saturday, June 09, 2012, 18:05 (348 days ago)

Dancing with the Devil: another review of Chris Geraghty’s new book.

There is a long list of books on Catholicism in Australia. Eris O’Brien wrote the story of John Joseph Therry. Then in the 1960s Ronald Fogarty, James Murtagh, Patrick O’Farrell and John Moloney wrote histories that made claims about what we were like. O’Farrell said we were Irish. Moloney said that we were formed in a Roman mould. He meant that our bishops were mostly Roman trained and so subservient to Rome. I haven’t read him for ages but I think it was he who pointed out that most of our bishops have been canon lawyers. And you know all the jokes about lawyers (canon and civil): they lack imagination, scruple, decency and most of the virtues. Moloney didn’t say all this of course but he might have. We have had some very ordinary bishops!

Then there were the novels. Keneally’s A Place at Whitton, Three Cheers for the Paraclete and the films, Schepisi’s The Devil’s Playground, and the plays, Ron Blair’s The Christian Brother, and the ABC’s Brides of Christ. Then there were the memoirs, Rockchoppers by Ed Campion and the 'why I left the priesthood' stories. Michael Parer who writes here was one of, maybe the first.

‘Growing up Catholic in Australia’ and ‘Why I left the Church’ became genres in Australian writing. Around the same time feminists who had been educated in Catholic girls’ schools and a few feminists who had been or still were nuns wrote books or founded journals that questioned the Church on any number of fronts.

Eris O’Brien, Ronald Fogarty, James Murtagh and Patrick O’Farrell wrote basically celebratory books. They wanted to record what Catholics had accomplished in Australia. Moloney was not so sure. He had suffered at the hands of bishops (both real ones and proxy ones – read ‘B. A. Santamaria’ - and monsignors) and he was blowing the whistle.

Like a state of origin football match the whistle has blown loudly and often ever since.

Until about 1970 Catholics in Australia were mostly Irish descended working class Catholic school educated obedient folk. We were part of an ideology that taught us what to think and how to behave. Children, boys much more than girls entered seminaries and juniorates aged twelve or thirteen. The girls entered novitiates but usually they waited a bit and were more mature for the experience. The boys entered in significant numbers and they were pre-pubescent and innocent. There they were trained by people who had lived a similar lifestyle. Some were sadly still pre-pubescent even though mature aged.

They all lived in a Church that for more than a hundred years had been turned inward. Like George W Bush’s ‘War on Terror’ they were part of an organisation at war with a concept. The Church was at war with ‘modernism’. Modernism is extremely hard to define, as terrorism is. The advantage of being at war with a concept is that the generals can include in the list of enemies anyone who disagrees with them.

Leaders in this situation teach people what to think never how to think. Children who enter novitiates and seminaries in this kind of regime are particularly disadvantaged. They enter in innocence and believe most of what they are told. When the punishment for disobedience is eternal damnation they are especially trapped. These kinds of regimes encourage and reward bullies and bullies rise to the top of them. Bullies who claim to have a direct line to God are especially lethal.

That the Church in Australia was of Irish descent did not help here. The Irish were oppressed for centuries. As in many oppressed societies violence and bullying were part of their modus operandi. Not all the Irish were violent of course but there was violence in the Church.

It was also the case that for some poor Irish entering the clergy was a step up in class. Poor farm boys not well educated and with no depth of culture often entered the seminary and often did well. Many of them migrated to Australia where they passed on their clerical culture. Some of them also took on some of the worst aspects of Australian macho culture.

The Australian Catholic clergy were not on the whole well educated. They built big but not beautiful, it’s an Irish thing and they are still doing it there. They wrote nothing of consequence. They taught nothing imaginative or unusual. They were pope’s men. They were men’s men, often kind but seldom thought provoking. They lived in an alien world but while their flocks were also uneducated, poor and second class they maintained their power.

There is a truism in academia that says, “The reason academics fight so viciously about what seem trivial matters is that there is so little to fight about and the rewards are so paltry.” People with small ambitions often fight fiercely to attain them. Without picking on anyone, being bishop of Wilcannia Forbes is hardly a big ambition. Being parish priest at Koorawatha is not a big job though it might sound so to a little Irish mother in County Clare. But in a small system you’d be surprised how people will fight to get such jobs.

Chris Geraghty’s new book Dancing with the Devil needs to be seen in the context of what has gone before and in the light of his two earlier books Cassocks in the Wilderness and The Priest Factory.

First a few technical things about Dancing with the Devil. It might have been better edited. There are typos, and repetition. The tone is not consistent. He is sometimes scholarly sometimes crude though mostly he is a good story teller. The inconsistency could easily have been ironed out. The links between topics and chapters are not always smooth. Occasionally Geraghty is sarcastic and sarcasm is never good writing.

These complaints aside I found the book hard to put down. The anger that is more evident in the first two books has dissipated. This is a good thing. There is no point getting angry it just gets in the way of your grieving lost opportunities and then getting on with your life.

I know or knew many of the people he mentions. I stopped going to Mass at Eastwood because of Jack Hasler’s ockerism and shallowness. He died spectacularly though. For his seventieth birthday he asked for and was given a sailboard. He was out on the waves with it, had a heart attack and was dead when they brought him in. Our son who was sixteen at the time was very impressed.

At least once I attended a Mass Geraghty celebrated and he was very good at it. Though I was a brother not a priest his story is much like my own though fortunately I did not meet the bullies and main- chancers he did. Brothers had community life and for all their toughness could be gentle and supportive. I did meet people who didn’t want us to think and others who played political games but as I was ‘only a teacher’ or ‘only a brother’ I was no threat to them.

I had a contact with Frank Mecham once or twice. I once attended a school where Mecham was parish priest. He perplexed the school principal the day before a school Mass by telling her that she was to tell the girls that unless they had been to Mass on the preceding Sunday they were not to go to communion at the school Mass. “I do not want girls in mortal sin coming to communion,” he said.

In 1964 I was the young brother in a community where one of the old brothers loved to attend speech nights of Christian Brothers’ schools. He would not go alone and no one else would go with him so I attended every speech night in Sydney and at nearly all of them then Bishop James Freeman gave the address. He was a Christian Brothers’ old boy. At every one he told the same story. During the Roman persecutions (he meant Nero persecuting the Christians not the CDF persecuting theologians!) Polycarp was a deacon who was being marched out to be eaten by the lions. As he was marched through the streets he began to have second thoughts. He was shaking with fear. But one of the other Christians said to him, “Bear up Polycarp and play the man.” Polycarp died bravely as a result. Christian Brothers’ boys were encouraged to do the same. As well as boxing at Sydney Stadium James freeman also liked watching Easts play rugby league at the Sports Ground.

When I was a child all the priests I knew were Irish. They were remote men who lacked humour and as far as I know never visited the poor or the ordinary folk in the town. They were good men I presume but I felt alienated by them. I cannot remember a friendly word or ever learning anything from them except how to serve at Mass (and then it was often a rude complaint when we got it wrong). I had not the slightest urge to join them. This was a similar experience when I first began teaching in Sydney.

Luckily I then went to Canberra where people like the young Pat Power, Laurie Blake, Denis Nickle and many others turned out to be good men who were priests rather than ‘priests’. I worked with these men in YCS and other projects and am deeply grateful. I also came across the MSC priests. They were a bit outrageous, a law unto themselves. They seemed to be often in trouble with the Archbishop Thomas Cahill but it didn’t seem to worry them. I learnt from several of them and found them encouraging though some of them were not especially good school men.

I left home and joined the Brothers aged fifteen. Then the 1960s and 70s happened. There was a liturgical revival. I was lucky because in Strathfield at the Christian Brothers it was in full swing. I was also lucky because several of my teachers Columba Davy and Chris Harris especially broadened and opened my mind. They set me onto reading good literature and eventually good theology. When one day I said enthusiastically that the head brothers always seemed to get decisions right Chris Harris said to me, “You poor innocent boy!” The Imitation of Christ says that the habit does not make the monk. In my case long trousers did not make the man.

Strathfield was not Paris but when Geraghty talks of what he was learning in Paris I am envious but also feel the excitement of recognition. We were singing Gelineau too. Some of my training was insane but I would say of 1961-63 what Wordsworth said of his youth:

OH! pleasant exercise of hope and joy!
For mighty were the auxiliars which then stood
Upon our side, we who were strong in love!
Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
But to be young was very heaven!

But for us, as with Wordsworth the experience did not last. In Australia too many people had too much to lose and too many others, often in high positions in the Church did not have the first clue about what was going on but they still tried to stop it.

Eventually I worked in the Catholic Education Office. There I was perplexed by the official Church’s attitude to priests. Men ‘in the service’ were privileged. Some could get away with almost anything. Some were appointed to jobs in education, not because they could teach or because they knew about education but because they were priests. They seldom knew what they were doing and they did not have the confidence of the teachers and educators they supervised. I occasionally had to contact priests and was amazed at how bad mannered many of them were. I suspect now that they were threatened. Some were just mad. I was also surprised how uneducated some of them were, even men of quite high status.

I worked in the CEO at a time when many priests were leaving. We were at first forbidden to employ former priests as teachers. When Chris Geraghty applied to teach at Castle Hill Teachers’ College he had no chance (or as one of my old teachers used say, “You have two chances Son, Buckley’s and none”). As a former priest, even had he been the only applicant he would have not got the job. And then he would have been spun a yarn, as he was about ‘many applicants, some of them with books published by Oxford University Press’ etc.

Ironically one or two men were employed because they were priests (he’ll be able to help with Masses etc) rather than because they were the best qualified applicant and then left the priesthood leaving their employers in the lurch. Oh well!

Later ex priests were employed but could not be promoted. Finally the MSCs in Canberra employed one of their own former priests as Principal of Daramalan College but then they were always ahead of the game. We were told of one bishop who said we were not to employ ex priests, dispensation or not because he did not want them to get the idea they could leave the priesthood and easily pick up a job. I suppose the silly man thought that priests staying because they were frightened to leave were somehow a good idea.

And most Sydney trained priests had no tradable qualifications. As Geraghty shows much of their education from the seminary was useless anyway. It had not taught them to think or read or question. I knew ex priests who were doing menial jobs, some loving it even though earning a pittance because at least they were free, but mostly vastly underemployed yet not qualified to do anything else. These men were done a grave injustice.

In the earlier books in which Geraghty was angry it might not have helped his soul but he had plenty to be angry about.

Some things in the book are seriously disturbing. The innocent boy in me despite Chris Harris’ surprise so long ago still wants to believe that Church is a holy place where justice, goodness, prudence and love prevail. All my experience still does not make it easy to read of the depredations of Vince Kiss. Recently I looked through the list of miscreants named by Broken Rites and was surprised how many of them I know or knew or worked with at one time. I am still amazed t how many priests there are on the list.

I appreciate that Chris Geraghty felt stymied by what he found out about sexually abusive priests. We were innocents abroad and as Ted Kennedy observed so wisely they tried to keep us like that. I know old men who will not answer the phone and say “Christian Brothers”. They are too ashamed of what some of their men have done.

That some people in high positions knew and covered up makes their shame worse. They were lied to and it is hard when you no longer trust the people in authority.

There are things in the book I enjoyed too, not just because they reminded me of so much of my own history. His information on Ireneus prompts me to follow him up. His list of people he admires is largely like my own. His list of people he does not admire, likewise. I am tempted to read more of Congar and De Lubac. I am encouraged that others think of JPII, for example as I do.

I began by putting Geraghty’s book in a context of Catholic writing. Last year I saw an article of Ed Campion’s saying that no one had yet written a biography of Archbishop James Carroll. I had a rush of blood to the head (or somewhere!) and thought I might try it. I even told Ed I’d thought of it. He was helpful and encouraging as he always is but I quickly realised that I don’t have the energy or the desire.

Reading Chris Geraghty’s account of Carroll I realise that even if I did have the energy it would be a toxic place for me to go. I cannot dredge around in Catholic clerical politics without getting soiled and I doubt it is a good place for anyone who wants to tell the truth. You’d need to be Geoffrey Chaucer. It would be better to wait for a hundred years as Rome should have done with JPII’s beatification until people can get some perspective on our time and its people (if anyone is still interested) or just leave it all alone.

Someone has claimed that the Australian Catholic church was an Irish colony. That sounds about right. Ronald Fogarty, James Murtagh, Patrick O’Farrell and to a much lesser extent John Moloney were the chroniclers of that Irish colony or that branch of the Roman Empire, whichever you prefer.

One of the features of the natives’ response to being colonised by the Irish is that we have responded to it with stories, films, plays and poetry. Thomas Keneally, Edmund Campion, Fred Schepisi, Ron Blair, Michael Parer and Chris Geraghty and others are chroniclers of what affect it all had on us. Women-Church Journal, WATAC and other groups have told us what effect it had on women. Like good story tellers everywhere they are telling us the truth of it.

There are Aboriginal people in Australia who make fun of us Europeans. They use mythic language and jokes so that we do not catch on. Who can blame them? Bullies, power brokers, and main chancers don’t catch on to stories and jokes. They think that a command barked from on high or a few shots fired over the heads will fix things up. They don’t notice the natives are laughing at them.

This book is laughing at them. They won’t catch on. They will just wonder why everything has gone quiet all of a sudden and why everyone has noiselessly walked away.

locked
  1251 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by Marian @, Saturday, June 09, 2012, 18:52 (348 days ago) @ Enda

Enda, thanks for this very interesting commenatary. I must admit that when I first came aware of the Catholic Church was when I was 14 and was sent to Brigidine Convent school. I was not a Catholic nor even baptised but for some reason was allowed to attend. My mother was interested in becoming a Catholic so that probably was the reason. But honestly, I thought you had to be Irish to be a Catholic and to be a Catholic you had to be Irish because almost everyone attending the school and the nuns were of Irish decent or anglos. I don't need to go into any details of the type of education I received as it is all too familiar to everyone who attended a Catholic school int the '50s!

I have left that Catholic Church far behind and never want to experience it again, regardless of what Benedict thinks!


Marian


who is hoping for a new way to be church

locked
  727 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by Macbee, Australia, Saturday, June 09, 2012, 19:20 (348 days ago) @ Marian

Marian

With you starting off at a Catholic School in those days must of been hard, did you leave the Church because you were abused or was it just that you felt it wasn't for you anymore? i feel terrible when i think about that i do not fit in anymore and i have to be a catholic just with in myself but i still do things like when i drive past our Church here in Ballina i slow down and look i just carn't seem to help myself, across the road is the uniting Church it has a big Bill Board out the front and always has these great saying up i then look across and read them and it makes me so welcome then i look back and think what a loss for the Catholic Church that i am not a part of it. i was so distraught one day i went to the Uniting and spoke to the parson and he asked me could he pray over me and i said yes i was crying and sobbing telling him that i should be across the road he assured me that they were not worthy of me and to come any time that i was most welcome.


Macbee

locked
  687 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by Marian @, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 16:43 (347 days ago) @ Macbee

Marian

With you starting off at a Catholic School in those days must of been hard, did you leave the Church because you were abused or was it just that you felt it wasn't for you anymore?

Macbee, in truth I was not abused but had a gut full of moral theology - in those days we were told that we were walking occasions of sin and that even to kiss before marriage was a sin!! Oh joy! Did a lot for one's confidence - took me years to get over that.

But to say that I have left the church - in one way, yes I have, but I want to be among those who bring in change to the Church of the 21st century so although I no longer attend Mass I am still a committed Christian.

Marian


who is hoping for a new way to be church

locked
  550 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by Macbee, Australia, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 18:25 (347 days ago) @ Marian

Marian


Same here they cannot take that away from me even at this moment for me with my eye infection from surgery which will not be healed for at least another month i think of all the people that are blind and cannot see the rains pouring down like it is here seeing even though i was yelling and doing a bit of cursing the garden bed was like a little swimming pool and all my plants drowned I wonder how one would feel if they could never see such a small thing. When people say to me they are not a Christian i always feel amazed because that is just not in my make. God Bless


macbee

locked
  556 views
Avatar

Chris Geraghty's new book, another review.

by desi @, Australia, Saturday, June 09, 2012, 18:59 (348 days ago) @ Enda

Thanks for the excellent review, I have ordered the book from my local library (they are buying it in as they already stock the first two books in the trilogy) and I’m really looking forward to reading all three.


I found the opening part of the ‘review’, before getting into the book itself, very interesting especially the part about the situation where young boys joined the Junior Seminary.

The boys entered in significant numbers and they were pre-pubescent and innocent. There they were trained by people who had lived a similar lifestyle. Some were sadly still pre-pubescent even though mature aged.
They all lived in a Church that for more than a hundred years had been turned inward. Like George W Bush’s ‘War on Terror’ they were part of an organisation at war with a concept. The Church was at war with ‘modernism’. Modernism is extremely hard to define, as terrorism is. The advantage of being at war with a concept is that the generals can include in the list of enemies anyone who disagrees with them.
Leaders in this situation teach people what to think never how to think. Children who enter novitiates and seminaries in this kind of regime are particularly disadvantaged. They enter in innocence and believe most of what they are told. When the punishment for disobedience is eternal damnation they are especially trapped. These kinds of regimes encourage and reward bullies and bullies rise to the top of them. Bullies who claim to have a direct line to God are especially lethal.

.

Absolutely on the mark.

.
Love the closing remarks!


Bullies, power brokers, and main chancers don’t catch on to stories and jokes. They think that a command barked from on high or a few shots fired over the heads will fix things up. They don’t notice the natives are laughing at them.
This book is laughing at them. They won’t catch on. They will just wonder why everything has gone quiet all of a sudden and why everyone has noiselessly walked away.

locked
  663 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by Macbee, Australia, Saturday, June 09, 2012, 19:09 (348 days ago) @ Enda

Enda

Enda fantastic post thank you.
Was James Carroll ever in Lismore because when i first went to see the Bishop in Lismore in 2003 i was taken to a big room where all the Bishops before him were adorning the walls in huge Gold frames i remember my support person commenting in jest that he was a relative of mine because a Bishop Carroll was up there looking down at me it was so intimadating sitting at this big table with all men five i think plus the Bishop and just little old me after crying for the first hour with fright i pulled myself together how i have no idea it may of been because i was holding my Scapular that was about 35 years old in tatters.


Macbee

locked
  623 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by PeterR @, Saturday, June 09, 2012, 19:26 (348 days ago) @ Enda

Thanks, Enda.

Most of my memories have been lost, which was a good way to handle them.

Maybe, that is the reason old men are considered to be wise.

Peter

locked
  732 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by James, Australia, Saturday, June 09, 2012, 20:16 (348 days ago) @ Enda

Thanks, Enda for your review, and for your observations about growing up and experiencing a similar milieu about which Geraghty was writing.

And, as you say, there have been many such books written, but what I found interesting about this one was his descriptions of an internal struggle, a kind of Confessions of St. Augustine in reverse. Now, some people may be more interested in the sort of thing that you talk about - the sociological factors that gave rise to the commitment of many young people to the cause of the Church in the fifties and sixties, the "escape" that priestly or religious life might have offered bog Irish, the inadequacy of seminary training etc. But for me, the more interesting part was Geraghty's own internal journey, because he didn't do what Roger Pryke, or Paul Crittenden or John Burnheim did - go right out the door and out of belief altogether. He remains very much of the view that the Church can be reformed, and should be, and that there is still a message out there to be communicated.

The problem is, as has been discussed so much in this forum, what is left of the message? If what is admired about the Church is its past good deeds, then there is no need for faith in Christian dogmas to support that. There are plenty of non believers prepared to make sacrifices and work for "non-denominational", if not "secular" charities doing the same good works that the Church used to do, and in some places still does.

I'm afraid my position is much closer to that of John Burnheim - the Church had failed the test in its claim to be the means by which the Creator of the Universe was communicating with and guiding his creatures. In other words, the issues about which Geraghty speaks so powerfully are not just matters which call for reform. They go to the very basis of belief.

locked
  715 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by Liz, Saturday, June 09, 2012, 22:04 (348 days ago) @ James

Well, it certainly is interesting to read about this, in light of his regrets about that young seminarian who had confessed to him about being sexually abused and his ineffectual actions, and in the light of what he must know now about effects of child sexual abuse.

ANOTHER child rapist walks free. And the question is now urgent: how dangerously racist are our courts?

Two years ago a 24-year-old man broke into a house near Yamba and went to a room where a four-year-old girl was sleeping.

He stepped out of his underpants and stripped the girl, who told him to go away. The man instead digitally penetrated her and masturbated.

For how long would you jail this man, who had a long criminal record (albeit not for rape) and was on a bond?

Now let me tell you the jail time the NSW District Court imposed. Not a day.

To be precise, Judge Chris Geraghty gave the rapist a two-year suspended sentence, so he could walk free.

You may already suspect, as I did, why such a shocking crime got such a light sentence.

Yes, the judge says he merely took into account the man’s remorse, his plea of guilty, and the lack of premeditation of a rape that was “a moment of drunken madness”.

But for me the words that rang loudest were these: “(The rapist) is a man of Aboriginal origin ...”

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_dark_...

locked
  781 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by James, Australia, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 03:49 (348 days ago) @ Liz
edited by James, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 06:48

Well, it certainly is interesting to read about this, in light of his regrets about that young seminarian who had confessed to him about being sexually abused and his ineffectual actions, and in the light of what he must know now about effects of child sexual abuse.

Liz,

You might have got a more balanced account of this sentence if you had referred to Richard Ackland's column about the incident, rather than Andrew Bolt's.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/public-bays-for-blood-but-the-story-is-a-fraught-one-2009...

Or even better, from the Blackburn lecture by Justice Lex Lasry about the media and sentencing.

One example of sentencing outcry that you would probably all be familiar with is the recent matter of R v Ronald King, in which the offender, a 24 year old Aboriginal man, admitted to having digitally penetrated a four year old girl in Grafton NSW, having broken into her grandmother’s home. There was a significant backlash against the sentence ultimately imposed by Judge Geraghty of the NSW District Court in February this year: he sentenced Mr King to a two year suspended sentence and imposed a two year good behaviour bond. The offence for which King was charged had a maximum penalty of 25 years, and so the community, with a great deal of assistance from the media, was outraged at the seemingly paltry sentence.

Justice Sackville, of the NSW Supreme Court, later criticized The Australian newspaper for failing to report that King had already been in custody for 14 months at the time of his sentencing. This is an excellent example of how the media, in its sometimes sensational reportage, can miss a crucial element and thus skew community’s perceptions as to judicial sentencing considerations. As you would be aware, there is a vast array of factors that a judge must consider in sentencing an offender, and pre- and post-trial custody is one very important factor. There were, in fact, an array of factors that led Judge Geraghty in passing the sentence that he did – as one more balanced journalist remarked in relation to the sentencing considerations: it “looks like a pretty messy balance sheet of credits and debits”.

You may or may not be aware that the sentence Judge Geraghty imposed was recently quashed: on 23 April 2009 the NSW Court of Criminal Appeal allowed the Crown’s appeal against sentence and King was resentenced to a term of imprisonment of 4 years 6 months non parole. King will now be eligible for parole on 27 May 2012.
In allowing the appeal, the Appeals Justices of the Court of Criminal Appeal found (R v Ronald King [2009] NSWCCA 117):

That the trial judge had erred in imposing a sentence falling far short of appropriately denouncing King’s crime.
The Appeals Justices noted
‘Society is entitled to have the sentence imposed denounce the criminal conduct of the offender and, if the sentence does not do so, there has been an error in the exercise of the sentencing discretion’
It is a shame that this type of judicial commentary is less exciting, therefore less conveyed by reporters ....


http://www.cla.asn.au/0805/index.php/articles/articles/lasry-j-appears-in-defence-of-un...

So the Court of Criminal Appeal decided that Geraghty's sentence was too light, and gave King four years six months non parole while taking into account the 14 months he had already served before trial. In other words, they added on another 3 years 4 months of actual time in jail onto the 14 months that Geraghty had effectively given King, while doing away with the 2 year suspended sentence.

Andrew Bolt's column tried to paint Geraghty as a racist because the man was aboriginal. What was your point in repeating Bolt's column, rather than one of the other two (they took two minutes to google)? That he had learned nothing from the experience he described in the seminary? If that is the inference, wouldn't it have been better to have examined all his sentencing decisions on matters of child sexual assault, rather than simply relying on the one overturned by the Court of Criminal Appeal?

And what if an examination showed that he tended to be lenient anyway on all types of crime that had nothing to do with child sexual assault, (and perhaps regularly overturned by the Court of Criminal Appeal), wouldn't that mean that this particular sentence had nothing to do with his attitude, one way or another, to child sexual assault?

locked
  791 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by Oh Yet We Trust, Brisbane, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 08:29 (348 days ago) @ James

Regardless of who said it, the point is that we need to be more balanced, discerning and even scientific in who we blindly hero worship and who we blindly reject as nutters, or temple police or liberals.

From the other 'better' article, (and yes, we know Bolt is a sensationalist shock jock but such as these also serve us in a bit of a Popperian or at least counter-argument sort of way I think as long as we don't blindly follow them). It was interesting reading this better article: I found it almost as equally disturbing because of it's 'better' journalism. I have rearranged the better article and left other bits out. I did this because I wanted to concentrate on the victim and her/his experience which always seems to be less important.

Between 9 and 10.30 in the evening of November 23, 2007, King, who was drunk, broke into the house of the victim's grandmother. The child was sleeping there. He went to her bedroom and turned off the night light, removed his pants and underpants and the victim's pyjama pants and underpants. She woke up and told him to go away.

The judge is then required to make an objective assessment of the seriousness of the offence. To this end he bore the following facts in mind: the intercourse was one of digital penetration for a relatively brief time. There was no persuasion or threat. There was no evidence of major damage; some evidence of minor, transitory damage. There was no evidence of continuing damage, either physical or psychological.

There did appear to be some uncertainty about any "residue" of psychological damage because the victim was unable to go to sleep and was shaking after the assault. She continued to shake even when she did get to sleep. Clearly, greater weight should have been given to those factors after further exploration.

Essentially, Judge Geraghty threw King a lifeline before he walked off the bench to retirement. In the process he neglected to give more weight to the circumstances of the victim.

Now, having said all this 'other-side' stuff, I am tempted now to read Geraghty's book, and I am certain, even without reading it that I will agree with 90% of what he writes, and passionately so, but seriously, I am so over this 'us and them' life-meaning - it is tearing me apart because I like everyone have both us and them in ourselves. I am absolutely sure that Geraghty is a brilliant and compassionate man and perhaps this was his one not so good decision - God knows we all make them. Now I am wondering if I have made more than one myself.

I have turned against my own flesh and blood for the sake of all the stuff and dogma we discuss here. Remember how we have so often said how the church puts dogma before people, well, it's happened to me now where I have never been like that in the past: I have put liberal dogma before my own flesh and blood and fawned after the popularist agendas and their groups of people and placed them before my own family, unknown , cyber people, before my own flesh and blood.

There is something very wrong happening and I need time away to sort this out just as I needed time away from the church to realise the cave I had become trapped in.

I care about all the people here and I have learned a great deal and had I not come here I would never have dealt with my own past and I thank you all for having supported me and Liz through all this, but I worry now that I am losing even more and I need to find joy in life again, and a simplicity which I have lost, the simplicity of loving the ones you are with - and I need to find a job.

So, peace to you all, may you find what it is you are looking for: A hint - it is within and at times very deep within, not outside of you.

Stephen

And Brian, Liz is not a Temple Police type at all, she's just a free thinker not bound by any one side - I suppose we are both 'Devil's Advocates'.


Oh yet we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill

locked
  629 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by Liz, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 10:04 (348 days ago) @ James

Thanks James for linking us to the other articles here.


But the Andrew Bolt's article did say he was on a bond, which means that he had would have violated the conditions of that bond when he committed that crime, and that is something which I admit, the article does not explore any further, unfortunately.

The fact remains that The Court of Criminal Appeals did overturn Geraghty's extremely lenient sentencing, and it makes me wonder if it is such sensationalist reporting as Andrew Bolt's piece reflects the real problem that is at hand...that is for me the bottom line here, and indeed the bottom line in the article:

"And Aboriginal victims - girls and women especially - getting less protection."

And that is because the focus has been on aboriginal male crimes and their large numbers in jails, that we can too easily forget and look over the fact that this is really not helping the real innocent victims here, the women and children. And that is why I chose to place this article here.

locked
  591 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by James, Australia, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 10:51 (348 days ago) @ Liz

Hi Liz,

The fact remains that The Court of Criminal Appeals did overturn Geraghty's extremely lenient sentencing, and it makes me wonder if it is such sensationalist reporting as Andrew Bolt's piece reflects the real problem that is at hand...that is for me the bottom line here, and indeed the bottom line in the article:

"And Aboriginal victims - girls and women especially - getting less protection."

And that is because the focus has been on aboriginal male crimes and their large numbers in jails

That is a fair point Liz, but it has nothing to do with Geraghty's experience of being told about pedophilia involving a seminary student and another priest, and his admittedly inadequate response to it.

But the other thing is, there is nothing in those newspaper reports to say that the victim in this case was an aboriginal girl. Bolt's article makes use of other cases, not the one involving Geraghty, to make his point. Nor is there anything in Richard Ackland's article to that effect. Indeed, there is nothing in the report of the Court of Criminal Appeal to say that the girl was aboriginal. The man certainly was aboriginal, but was "unknown to the family".

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/nsw/NSWCCA/2009/117.html?stem=0&...

If the point you were making was that Geraghty as a judge was too soft on aborigines - the point that Andrew Bolt was making - I fail to see how that has anything to do with what Geraghty describes in his book about the seminarian - who was not aboriginal, nor was the priest involved.

locked
  587 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by Liz, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 14:06 (347 days ago) @ James

"My night visitor had spoken to me in confidence, but I was wondering what other scandals might be bubbling under the cover of hymns and incense.... Despite my failure to explore the intimate details of Father Kiss's "missionary" activities, from the little I was told, I knew in my bones that what he had been doing constituted a grave sin."

Kiernan Tapsell's review (quote from book)
http://www.catholica.com.au/gc2/occ2/094_occ2_020612.php

"Morris West entered the Christian Brothers aged twelve. It was common in those days. When I entered in 1960 there were still boys who'd entered at thirteen.Our novice master entered aged thirteen as did many of the men who trained us. They were good men but knew nothing of the world and as far sa I can tell nothing of intimacy. Some of them made very bad decisions later when they were faced with sex abusers."


http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=104439


James,

From reading the above, taken from Keirnan Tapsell's review of Geraghty's book, (and the other associated comments, such as Edna's, made on this forum here), shows again, the inability of the clergy to effectively deal with sexual abuse, and is the reason why I used his name in reference to the ruling he made in court that day. It is how our backgrounds can shape our decision making, and in this case, I am referring to those aboriginal women and children who may not seek justice when they see such lenient sentencing, especially when it is a 'white' girl.

Yes, you are right in saying that this young girl who was the victim, was not an aboriginal. The reference alluded to aboriginal women and children who are very much the victims of this kind of crime in society. They become the forgotten ones, and is made worse by their fear of speaking up. Has Geraghty taken this into consideration, with a background of the kinds religious attitude we see in the Catholic church amongst clergy towards women and children in general?


(see article below and the table 1:" Barriers to reporting sexual assault" within the given link)


Perceptions of justice system response

There is an extent to which the decision to report an offence depends on the victim’s belief that reporting will achieve a desired outcome and that prosecution will be effective. Levels of reported crime may at least partly reflect the community’s confidence in the justice system and the willingness and ability of the system, particularly police, to respond effectively (Carcach 1997). Sexual assault victims are less likely to report to police when they do not expect their action will result in the perpetrator being punished (Jewkes & Abrahams 2002) or when they have a lack of trust in the criminal justice system (Mossman et al. 2009). Victims who are not reasonably confident that the system will deliver the kind of justice outcomes they seek may elect not to face the additional trauma, effort and risk that may come from reporting. This may be a rational decision, given the relatively few sexual assault cases that result in conviction. For instance, a study of sexual assault cases in the ACT found that cases that proceeded to prosecution resulted in the conviction of around one-third and the acquittal of around one in 10 apprehended offenders (Borzycki 2007).

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/401-420/tandi405.aspx

locked
  600 views

God help the people of Toomelah and elsewhere

by Oh Yet We Trust, Brisbane, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 14:51 (347 days ago) @ Liz

This has nothing really to do with Chris Geraghty's book but, dear God, Mal Brough makes some very powerful points and comments which is what this part of the thread is more about.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2012/s3514752.htm

We've ALL stuffed it up. And we all need to be the solution - together.


Oh yet we trust that somehow good
Will be the final goal of ill

locked
  612 views

Chris geraghty's new book, another review.

by James, Australia, Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:10 (347 days ago) @ Liz

There are a couple of things, Liz, that I think we may just have to disagree about. The first is that you linked Geraghty's judgment in the Roberts case to what he said about his "inadequate response" to what the seminarian had told him about being abused by the Director of Vocations for his diocese.

The only inference I could draw from that is that you were saying that he either had not learned from that experience or at least was influenced by the same considerations that led him to respond inadequately back 30 something years before. According to his book, the considerations that he had 30 years ago was to avoid scandal to the Church, and because he thought of it more as sin, than as a crime. As his judgment in the Robert's case was handed down just before retiring from the bench when he was writing Dancing with the Devil, neither of these could have been a consideration, bearing in mind what he had already written there. Apart from that, the Church was not even involved in the Robert's case.

Bolt's article, part of which you extracted, was really about what Bolt termed racist attitudes in the judiciary, because they gave favourable treatment to aboriginal perpretrators through lower sentences. Geraghty's judgment in the Roberts case, was one of his examples. And another point he made was that in dealing out lesser sentences, the judiciary was being unfair to the aboriginal victims - and generally they were aboriginal women and children, but not always, as the Roberts case demonstrates. Leaving aside Bolt's histrionic references to racism, there is something in what he says, as you point out.

However, this raises the whole question of whether longer sentences are a deterrent, and the more you read about this issue, the more you realise that they are not, at least generally. The greater the chance of getting caught, the greater the deterrence. And in the case of all sex crimes, this is always a problem, because there are usually no witnesses, a fact the perpetrators know very well. And what is an adequate sentence is something about which people will disagree.

You are quite right to point out tht a judge's background influences his or her decisions. We all know that, and that is why we will never get a perfect system of justice while human beings are involved. But the background that you were pointing out was Geraghty's experience with the abused seminarian at the Springwood seminary. I just cannot see any connecton whatsoever.

If you want to point to a "background", it might well be what Andrew Bolt was getting at: the tendency on the part of some members of the judiciary to try to keep aborigines out of jail because of their massive overrepresentation there. Bolt, of course, calls that racism, as you would expect any shock jock to say. But it might also be a genuine concern to find other ways of solving the problem of aboriginal criminality than by the use of that baseball bat, jail. And as you rightly point out, that itself raises problems from the point of view of the victims.

Anyway, I don't want to make a big thing of this. I still don't think there is any possible connection between Geraghty's description of what happened in the seminary some 30 years before and his judgment in the Roberts case.

locked
  510 views
Avatar

It's therapy. Chris Geraghty's book is therapy for wounded souls!

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Saturday, June 09, 2012, 23:48 (348 days ago) @ James

This must be a record for me but I started reading Chris's book at about 10.30pm last night when I lost access to our website and learned it wouldn't be restored until 3.00am. Here, at 11.30 pm on Saturday night I'm up to Chapter 40 and nearly finished the book.

For me it is therapy. I believe it will be great therapy for many of the disenchanted — and despite all the typos and criticisms Enda mentions.

This is a relatively new phenomenon of former priests "speaking out". Up until recently there was deep shame in being a "former priest". They tended to steal away like Church mice into relative obscurity in secular life. Like educated lay people who have finally seen through all the propaganda and bullshit more and more are becoming vocal. The wheels are falling off the institutional carriage. It's going to be fascinating to see where all this ends up. Ten or twenty years ago who of us would have believed the wheels were ever capable of falling off the Holy Roman Catholic Church?

One worries (I don't really) for the future of the institution under the leadership of the JPII Priests presently been recruited who so many in the upper echelons of the institution place so much faith in to "reverse the slide". They are a "ticking time bomb" and will, if anything, only exacerbate all the problems that have created the decline.

For a West Australian, and former proxy Victorian, as I am, Chris Geraghty's book has been a great education in the Sydney Catholic culture. His descriptions of Archbishop James Carroll are particularly enlightening in the wake of Anne O'Brien's assessment in her book which has been recently under discussion on Catholica. It is interesting seeing Andrew Bolt's assessment, which Liz has drawn to our attention down this string. I bet the Temple Police and the remnant Santamaria forces and their allies will come out with plenty more seeking to discredit Chris Geraghty in the wake of this book.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

locked
  1189 views

Having read Burnheim

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 14:29 (347 days ago) @ James

Hi James

I'm afraid my position is much closer to that of John Burnheim - the Church had failed the test in its claim to be the means by which the Creator of the Universe was communicating with and guiding his creatures. In other words, the issues about which Geraghty speaks so powerfully are not just matters which call for reform. They go to the very basis of belief.

I have read Burnheim and most of the others. I have not read the Pryke biography. I have sympathy for Burnheim’s position but I do not share it. One of the things that I notice is that former priests and former seminarians are more likely to become atheists than former nuns and brothers. I have no figures on this and it might be wrong. It is just an impression. I know a number of former priests who have walked right away. I know a lot of former religious and know fewer who have given it up entirely. Maybe it is that former priests are more likely to write books.

That said – I think that where we end up depends on what our core belief is. My core belief is that life is painful and I need reassurance that it is okay. I am getting this idea of ‘core belief’ from Zen but I think it applies here.

Take John Burnheim’s issue with the Church,

“its claim to be the means by which the Creator of the Universe was communicating with and guiding his creatures.”

For him it seems important to know where the truth is coming from.

I don’t care about this as an issue.

I am basically an intuitive person. I didn’t choose to be but I am. From my childhood I have come across things in Catholicism that I didn’t believe. They seemed stupid or nonsense or irrelevant. What was important though was the question, “Does this make my life meaningful?”

I was trapped into Catholicism though because I came into a very Catholic family and I am by nature and training (and the example of my mother) anxious. She would have won a gold medal if anxiety was an Olympic sport.

But all my life I have been coming across things and saying, “I don’t believe that. It stuffs up my life.”

Of course my anxiety and my raging super ego fight my intuition all the time but after an anxiety attack some years ago I am making headway there now. I know I cannot control things and I trust God to work it out.If she doesn't I am up the creek but I will live with that.

Despite my anxiety I decided when I was seventeen that if limbo existed I didn’t believe in God – limbo having caused my mother so much agony as she lost four babies unbaptised. At the time I chose to keep believing in God (the God of my fast disappearing childhood that is – not the God I believe in now).

The same year I was a novice and we were working our way through a wretched book that pretended to be theology. It consisted of a list of beliefs all of which were followed by De Fide (you believe this or you go to hell) OR Anathema sit (if you believe this you go to hell). One of the things that was said to be de fide that there was a time before the Fall when everything was perfect. As a novice I had foresworn the right to swear but under my breath I said “Bullshit”. I found that I believed most of the anathema sits and didn’t believe most of the de fides.

There was also a section on hyperdulia (adoration reserved to God alone) and dulia (the kind of worship you can safely address to the Virgin Mary). Again I whispered “bullshit”. Some years after in community my superior assured me I had to believe that Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus. That is her hymen was never ruptured. I realised that if theology was reduced to this then I was not interested. Later of course I came upon the ‘prick in the condom routine’. I realised that at the first sign of insanity in any part of theology (moral, dogmatic or any other kind) I was off.

The only part of Catholicism that I am interested in is the bit that convinces me that life is worth living and that it means something that is basically good. Whether WE are right and the others are wrong or whether God is on OUR side or whether God communicates with us especially doesn’t have any cache with me at all.

I take consolation where I find it. If it happens to be from Judaism, Sufism, Buddhism or even atheism I use it.

Whether the Church is reformable I do not know. It has been going 2000 years and I am sure it will outlast me but I would not bet the house on it lasting a lot longer. It might be on its last legs. Egyptian religion lasted longer and then died, Judaism is a remnant (still influential in an indirect way – it helps me via the psalms for example), Zoroastrianism is a tiny trickle (I taught a boy who was one only a few years ago).

Christianity was once Christendom and it ran Europe and provided its culture but that is finished. Catholicism failed Germany in the 1930s, it has failed Italy and France and it looks as though it cannot get its act together now anywhere. Maybe the Christian myth has run out of steam. It feels as though it has.

If the Church folds it folds. I still believe in a benevolent God (not the god of my childhood), I believe God is present in the universe and that the universe is good and that we are loved. I get my nourishment from intimacy, poetry, art, beauty all around me and many other things. I have come to the Zen conclusion that IT IS and it is okay, things fall apart and that’s how it is and a few other things.

I am not into dogma. I have no idea what happens when we die and I do not know or care where the Virgin Mary’s molecules are – or where Jesus’ molecules are though I know they have to have gone somewhere. I don’t think the Christian myth is about molecules.

If all this fell apart I might cease to believe in God but so far I am in it for the long haul. Clive James say something like, “Life is all there is and it is complex. Drugs and alcohol are attempts to simplify it. Stay with life.”

That's what I am trying to do.

locked
  619 views

A bit much!

by Nicholas @, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 20:06 (347 days ago) @ Enda

One of the things that I notice is that former priests and former seminarians are more likely to become atheists than former nuns and brothers. I have no figures on this and it might be wrong. It is just an impression. I know a number of former priests who have walked right away. I know a lot of former religious and know fewer who have given it up entirely.


Enda, most of your posts make a lot of sense, and I usually enjoy reading your contributions. But I think this claim is a bit much! You say yourself that you have no evidence for it. Are you starting to get ahead of yourself?

Neither do I have statistical evidence for the contrary but, being in touch with very many ex-priests, I am sure that you are wrong. You should be careful with such statements.

On behalf of many, I find that strange throw-away assertion quite hurtful.

You just don't know of the struggles and the lack of support, yet the humility with which so many 'ex-priests' (your terminology) live out their lives within the church.

locked
  566 views

Maybe not as much as you think.

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:22 (347 days ago) @ Nicholas
edited by Enda, Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:39

Hi Nicholas

I think you missed my point. Probably I made it badly.

I was replying to James who was a seminarian and as far as I can gather has given it all away (I always read his posts because I almost always learn from them). I can see his point. He quoted John Burnheim, Paul Crittenden and Roger Pryke RIP who he says have given it all away. I have not read the Pryke book and I am less sure than James is that Paul Crittenedn has given it all away. What I then meant was that I know a number of former priests and have read the books of other former priests, and certainly John Burnheim is one, who have gone from being priests to being atheists. Chris Geraghty in his book says the same thing. Geraghty says that although some other former priests have beccome atheists he is not one of them. Then I commented:

One of the things that I notice is that former priests and former seminarians are more likely to become atheists than former nuns and brothers. I have no figures on this and it might be wrong. It is just an impression. I know a number of former priests who have walked right away. I know a lot of former religious and know fewer who have given it up entirely.

This was just an observation and it is my experience. I am still surprised when I meet former priests who have become atheists. And I meet fewer former religious who have taken the same path. Of course I know lots of former priests who are still practising Catholics and they range from fundamentalists to men on the edges of the official Church. Some if they were allowed would still practise as priests only they are married. Some do practise in most ways except celebrating the eucharist.

locked
  509 views

Revisiting Crittenden

by James, Australia, Monday, June 11, 2012, 11:58 (347 days ago) @ Enda
edited by James, Monday, June 11, 2012, 18:02

He (James) quoted John Burnheim, Paul Crittenden and Roger Pryke RIP who he says have given it all away. I have not read the Pryke book and I am less sure than James is that Paul Crittenden has given it all away. What I then meant was that I know a number of former priests and have read the books of other former priests, and certainly John Burnheim is one, who have gone from being priests to being atheists. Chris Geraghty in his book says the same thing. Geraghty says that although some other former priests have beccome atheists he is not one of them.


It is always possible to read too much into what someone has written, so I thought I should go back to Paul Crittenden’s “Changing Orders” to check it again. On page 147, Crittenden repeats his letter of resignation to Cardinal Clancy,

“The main factor bearing on my decision is that I do not now subscribe in the appropriate way to the set of beliefs and habits of mind necessary for a priestly ministry. With respect to religion, I recognize the need for an institutional body such as the Church with a creed, moral teachings and forms of ritual. But my own convictions in matters of faith have come to fall largely in the domain of what is called Negative Theology. This can sustain a certain form of religious belief or cast of mind. But it falls well short of what is required of a priest in connection with presenting the Church’s teachings in faith and morals and presiding at its major forms of worship….
The reference to “negative theology” in my letter of resignation was an allusion to the “cloud of unknowing” that surrounds talk about God.


Crittenden then goes into a fairly long discourse about the various traditions, including Christian ones, about “not knowing”, and including Wittgenstein. He finished off with,

“From the time I first studied metaphysics in the seminary at Springwood, I had looked to philosophy to provide a firm basis for religious belief in God. …There was a hope in keeping with the Church’s insistently confident teaching about the power of reason to attain sure and certain knowledge of God, I had now come to the point where that dream had dissolved in the light of my sense of the limits of reason and my own limits, though I was willing to acknowledge that there are more things in heaven and on earth than are dreamt of in philosophy. This is broadly what I had in mind in alluding to negative theology in the letter to Archbishop Clancy.”


In the following chapter, he also talks about problems of the moral authority of the Church, and his own conviction that the Church had not only got it wrong with Humanae Vitae, but

“in the name of a postulated idea of sexual love, the teaching was a cause of considerable harm in the lives of many people..these concerns extended in time to other matters, again mainly the domain of human relations and sexuality, to aspects of the Church’s teaching and practice relating to women, marriage, homosexuality and the less than happy tradition of clerical celibacy.”
“More generally, there was the consideration that religious leaders, popes, bishops and the like do not have a source of moral insight that is unavailable to other morally concerned people”


And he the goes on to say that

“it does not follow, as many religious people suppose, that morality in its primary scope is dependent on religion for its content and guiding force. Morality arises basically in the conditions of human life, in the recognition of what is needed for human beings to live together and to flourish.”


And then,on the point I have made earlier about religion making a difference to behaviour, he writes,

“For all the Church’s profound contribution to moral understanding and practice, especially in social justice and care for the disadvantaged, its entanglement in moral failure and corruption is unhappily common. The current clerical abuse scandal, the abuse itself, and the scandal of the subsequent cover up by various authorities is a shockingly sad example.”


I'll leave it others to decide how to "categorize" Paul Crittenden from what he has written above, but the language he uses seems to be that of agnosticism in relation to the existence of God, and straight out rejection of other things the Church teaches, including its being a messenger of God to guide the world on how to behave. It certainly seems to me that he has "given all of it away". But I could be wrong.

locked
  541 views

Crittenden on institutional responsibility

by James, Australia, Monday, June 11, 2012, 13:07 (347 days ago) @ James
edited by James, Monday, June 11, 2012, 17:57

There is another comment in Crittenden’s book referring to institutional responsibility, which, as I have pointed out below creates its own problems for the claims that the Church makes about itself. After talking about the Church’s involvement in corruption and scandals, particularly the sex abuse cover up, he writes,

Faced with the evidence of moral failure, the institutional Churh is drawn to distinguish between the Church as holy ,as means of salvation and grace, and the Church as sinful, in so far as its members, including church officials, are sinners. But one aspect of sinfulness in the Church might be the attempt to rely on this distinction as a way of escaping institutional (and personal) responsibility.

.
It is one thing for the Church to say that a Pope is "bad" (eg. Alexander VI), and quite another for the Church leadership to be involved in what we now regard as crimes against humanity (Innocents III, VIII and many others), and in more recent times the cover up of clergy abuse by John Paul II and Benedict XVI, as deliberate Church policy. The whole point of this distinction is, as Crittenden points out, to escape institutional responsibility - and because the Pope is the Vicar of Christ - his personal responsibility.

There is no clearer evidence of this than in the cover up scandal where the finger is pointed at the bishops who were only doing what Canon Law told them to do. The problem with Benedict owning up to this institutional and his own personal faiing is that it quite seriously undermines its claims to be the spokesperson for the Creator of the Universe.

locked
  494 views

Revisiting Crittenden

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Monday, June 11, 2012, 18:10 (346 days ago) @ James

James I expect you are right. I hadn't re-read him.

locked
  450 views

Revisiting Crittenden

by Sue, Sydney, Monday, June 11, 2012, 19:47 (346 days ago) @ James

“...But my own convictions in matters of faith have come to fall largely in the domain of what is called Negative Theology. This can sustain a certain form of religious belief or cast of mind. But it falls well short of what is required of a priest in connection with presenting the Church’s teachings in faith and morals and presiding at its major forms of worship….
The reference to “negative theology” in my letter of resignation was an allusion to the “cloud of unknowing” that surrounds talk about God."

James, this is very interesting.  What you have quoted here from him does not suggest that Paul Crittendon is either an atheist or an agnostic. Negative theology does not deny or question the existence of God.  Unlike (positive) theology which makes various claims about God, negative theology just points to the mystery and says 'not this....not this'. The mystery, which the Cloud of Unknowing says can only be experienced as love, is beyond any words or theorizing so cannot be grasped conceptually by reasoning.  It certainly cannot bear the weight of formal theology.

If one goes beyond the theist/atheist dichotomy, (rather than getting stuck in one or the other) there remains the dichotomy of agnostic/gnostic, that is either 'don't know', or 'know, but can't conceptualize'.  A bit like Augustine saying he knows what time is, but when it comes to describing it, he is at a loss.

My own sense is that the search for the truth about the exustence of God begins from an agnostic or even an open-minded atheist position.  However, only mystical experience (not a matter of effort, or of pathology, or of reasoning) can leap the chasm between agnostic and gnostic and end the search.  

I don't know Paul Crittenden personally. If you do, I'm sure you could have a very interesting discussion along these lines.  Thanks for giving us that quotation though.

Sue

locked
  438 views

Revisiting Crittenden

by James, Australia, Monday, June 11, 2012, 21:17 (346 days ago) @ Sue

Thanks Sue, well, I don't know Paul Crittenden personally, and I can only go on what he has written in "Changing Orders". And as I said at the beginning, there is always a danger of reading things into something that someone has written that they did not intend. Crittenden does mention that Christian mystical tradition on page 350,

"One approach from early times, as im the writings of Justin and Clement of Alexandria tended towards a pure negative theology on the lines that God, being incomprehensible, can be characterised in negative terms only. This led on to the idea that, in relation to God, words fail, and what remains is silence. Perhaps this marks the opeing to the mystical, as in Wittgenstein's words, 'what we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence'. This theme..took a particularly strong form in the writings of the mystical theologian, Dionysius....Dionysian thoughts about 'unknowing' as the path to union with the divine were deeply influential in the MIddle Ages and in later mysticism. Nontheless, the Christian tradition, especially in the West has been marked more generally in confidence in the power of discourse, logos as word, or reason, as a path to a certain understanding of what lies beyond understanding. Augustine voiced this powerfully in the fifth century and St. Thomas Aquinas developed the approach further in the Middle Ages."

After discussing how Aquinas went about this, he writes,

"...he went on to construct a vast body of discourse that seeks to bring the 'God of Metaphysics' to unite with the 'God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Jesus Christ'.

Crittenden then goes on to discuss Pascal, and the idea that by engaging in spiritual exercises, as if we believed, then we can arrive at genuine religious belief.

"But this patterm can hardly serve as an adequate basis for acquiring specific religious beliefs about God and the universe. If practice were enough, a person might come to believe amost anything - as the history of religion attests. The more common practical approach, equally problematic, has been to ground religious belief in a self-authenticating form of immediate experience. But which experience can be relied on to uncover true belief? The difficulty in this case is to show how personal experience could conceivably ground doctrinal teachings such as the Creed proclaims."

He then discusses Kierkegaard and Wittgenstein, who provided an account,

"..in which belief in God consists fundamentally in the conviction that life has meaning, that our being is radically dependent, and that life is to be lived as subject to judgment. These are ideas that a thoughtful person could affirm. On the other hand, the sense in which they constitute beleif in God as a substative or defined for is unclear. For one might share these convictions in recognising human limits and responsibilities and in an effective commitment not to cease exploring 'the big questions' bequeathed from the metaphysical past and in being open to spiritual, ethical, and aesthetic value in the universe. Together with less certainty about human powers of thought in relation to the transcendent, or the universe as a whole, this outlook might manifest itself in a turn to negative theology, and a thoughtful acceptance of 'unknowing'. In that spirit, the doctrinal certainty of authoritative teaching gives way to a deeper place for poetry and metaphor, and for silence. That was where I had come to stand."

Now, whether you call this agnosticism, or not, is a matter of terminology, but it certainly looks like it to me. You have made this comment,

My own sense is that the search for the truth about the exustence of God begins from an agnostic or even an open-minded atheist position. However, only mystical experience (not a matter of effort, or of pathology, or of reasoning) can leap the chasm between agnostic and gnostic and end the search.

If the "mystical experience" is the touchstone for being agnostic or not, there is nothing that I can see in what Crittenden has written which would suggest that he has experienced or does experience that. But neither does he say he doesn't have it. But even assuming that one does have this experience through "poetry, metaphor and silence", that seems hardly enough to call yourself even a Cafeteria Catholic. I would have thought that the Catholic cafeteria would demand you order at least a bit more from the menu...

locked
  427 views

Revisiting Crittenden

by Sue, Sydney, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 00:02 (346 days ago) @ James

James, you are right about the danger of seeing more than intended in something written by another.  Thanks for the passages from Crittendon's book.  Good to have something so delicious to chew on!  I must try to get a copy as I find myself very much in agreement with all that he says here.

This passage for example.

"Nonetheless, the Christian tradition, especially in the West has been marked more generally in confidence in the power of discourse, logos as word, or reason, as a path to a certain understanding of what lies beyond understanding."

And I happen to think that this has been a huge problem for the Western Christian tradition.  The power of discourse, of reason, cannot answer the question of whether there is a God or not, whether that word refers to a reality beyond itself.  Human experience is the only way that question can be answered, and of course that experience has to be subjected rigorously to all the power of reasoning, and the findings of modern science.  I would add that it also has to be compared with similar experience across all religious traditions.  And I think Crittenden is addressing this here,

"...The more common practical approach, equally problematic, has been to ground religious belief in a self-authenticating form of immediate experience. But which experience can be relied on to uncover true belief? The difficulty in this case is to show how personal experience could conceivably ground doctrinal teachings such as the Creed proclaims."

I, too, do not think that personal experience can ground the doctrinal teaching that the Creed proclaims.  But then maybe doctrinal teachings, like old travel brochures, are no longer needed once the journey has been completed.

As you go on to say, Crittenden then discusses Kierkegaard and Wittgenstein. In the concluding sentences of the passage, he says,

"... Together with less certainty about human powers of thought in relation to the transcendent, or the universe as a whole, this outlook might manifest itself in a turn to negative theology, and a thoughtful acceptance of 'unknowing'. In that spirit, the doctrinal certainty of authoritative teaching gives way to a deeper place for poetry and metaphor, and for silence. That was where I had come to stand."

About this passage, and my own comment about the agnostic/gnostic dichotomy,  you say,

"If the "mystical experience" is the touchstone for being agnostic or not, there is nothing that I can see in what Crittenden has written which would suggest that he has experienced or does experience that. But neither does he say he doesn't have it. But even assuming that one does have this experience through "poetry, metaphor and silence", that seems hardly enough to call yourself even a Cafeteria Catholic. I would have thought that the Catholic cafeteria would demand you order at least a bit more from the menu..."

And guess what? I completely agree with you.  I cannot tell either, whether his 'negative theology' stance derives from experience, or is only theoretical, though with his reference to poetry, metaphor and silence, I suspect there are at least the glimmerings of experience there.

As far as choosing a bit more from the menu of the Catholic cafeteria ... Well,  I have already eaten, and I must say some of the food was pretty indigestible.  Also, I don't think the bread  was what the menu said it was, and the wine seemed to have no alcohol in it.  However, I've paid the bill and now I'm just sitting around enjoying the company. At least we all speak the same language.  Cheers.

Sue

locked
  420 views

Revisiting Crittenden

by James, Australia, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 07:55 (346 days ago) @ Sue

I cannot tell either, whether his (Crittenden's)'negative theology' stance derives from experience, or is only theoretical, though with his reference to poetry, metaphor and silence, I suspect there are at least the glimmerings of experience there.

As far as choosing a bit more from the menu of the Catholic cafeteria ... Well, I have already eaten, and I must say some of the food was pretty indigestible. Also, I don't think the bread was what the menu said it was, and the wine seemed to have no alcohol in it. However, I've paid the bill and now I'm just sitting around enjoying the company. At least we all speak the same language.

Crittenden was a priest for 24 years, leaving both the priesthood and the Church (at least the way the Pope would define it) at the age of 47. He was fortunate that he already had a job as a lecturer in Philosophy at Sydney University, and a career marked out for him, which history shows, he followed to distinction. But no one even thinks about becoming a priest unless at some time their life they had both an intellectual and emotional commitment to the whole Catholic story. In Crittenden's case, the intellectual foundations seemed to have started to fall away as he pursued his philosophical interests. Whether or not he now has some form of silent, relationship with God, bereft of all ecclesiastical dogmas and trappings, only he can answer, and there don't seem to be any clues from his book.

Those of us who also had that Catholic commitment at an earlier stage in life and can say with all honesty that we don't experience any personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, despite poetry, metaphor, silence and looking up on a starry night in amazement, sometimes have to wonder where that experience came from. And yet, in many ways, the experience is very similar with falling in and falling out of love, and it can be just as exhilarating at one end, and just as painful at the other.

This is where Chris Geraghty's book is quite different from Crittenden's. Changing Orders is an interesting book, but it is fairly dry, and an almost fact by fact writing of history. Those parts that I quoted to you are right at the end. There is really nothing in the book that describes any kind of internal struggle and dark night of the soul before jumping over the Church wall. But perhaps, that is what one should expect from a philosopher. Geraghty's book, on the other hand does describe that painful journey, but he didn't end up where Burnheim and (I suspect) Crittenden did. He still retains his Catholic faith, even though the Temple Police would regard him as a beyond the pale apostate.

As for sitting around, enjoying the company, and speaking the same language, that reminds me of Patrick White's remark that one thing he regrets is never having a Catholic upbringing because those who have long since given it away continue to luxuriate in it. And I readily admit that there is a bit of luxuriating going on in my contributing to Catholica.

locked
  424 views

Revisiting Crittenden

by judith, Walloon Australia, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 09:12 (346 days ago) @ James

One statement from the discussion about Paul Crittenden's work sprang out at me.

"Morality arises basically in the conditions of human life, in the recognition of what is needed for human beings to live together and to flourish."

I had a strict Catholic upbringing, an active relationship with God as I know Him, and a mind which seeks to understand the good and bad of life. But if I were confronted with an incident of someone harming a child, I would act from the heart rather than the head and probably be very violent towards that person, even to killing him/her.

What is the basis for any morality I might have? Or can I depend on instinct to act appropriately?

If we all gave way to our feelings, the human race would be almost, if not, extinct, as we would murder each other at a rapid rate. What is the basis for the morality which keeps most of us in check most of the time - fear of being caught, or a natural instinct to choose the better way, whether from self-interst or common good; or as a result of indoctrination early in life?


J A Holznagel

locked
  409 views

Revisiting Crittenden

by James, Australia, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 09:51 (346 days ago) @ judith

What is the basis for the morality which keeps most of us in check most of the time - fear of being caught, or a natural instinct to choose the better way, whether from self-interst or common good; or as a result of indoctrination early in life?

This is a very interesting question. We all recognize atavistic behaviour in children, depicted pretty well in Lord of the Flies. We also know that children not brought up very well are likely to act badly towards their fellows, and even have to be put away as criminals.

Some evolutionary psychologists believe that we are hard wired to be moral, but, like language, it requires a certain amount of training, and that does not happen, then the lizard brain comes to the fore.

The point that Crittenden was making is that being religious is not a pre-requisite to being moral, and that too is obvious from everyday experience where you have religious rotters and atheist saints - and vice versa, of course. But I think it is true that you have to be exposed to moral training of some sort, from an early age. That too is fairly obvious from everyday experience. It also makes the Church opposition to ethics classes in public schools for those with no religion, so incomprehensible.

locked
  408 views
Avatar

Thanks, James

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 10:44 (346 days ago) @ James

...that effectively answers the questions I was asking virtually at the same time as you were replying to Judith.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

locked
  403 views
Avatar

The question of a "personal God" vs "long term self interest"......

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 10:03 (346 days ago) @ judith

It's interesting that you should write that Judith. I was going to write something similar in response to James and especially his comment:

Those of us who also had that Catholic commitment at an earlier stage in life and can say with all honesty that we don't experience any personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, despite poetry, metaphor, silence and looking up on a starry night in amazement, sometimes have to wonder where that experience came from.

What strikes me about you James, and even though our aquaintance in face-to-face conversation is relatively slight, I think I know you well enough to say that you come across as a very compassionate and caring person – one who cares about the people and the world around you and are not driven primarily by self interest and aggrandisement – and I wonder where in the dickens that sort of outlook comes from in a person? I mean that seriously — in an existential level sense. I don't have a sense either of some "personal God" in the sense that there is this "voice" whispering in my ear to keep me on "the straight and narrow". I do sense though that there is something "out there", or "deep within", that gives us a moral sense — and gives the whole of humanity sufficient a sense that the "selfish gene" doesn't take over and human civilisation keeps heading back to the jungle where the bullies rule and it is "survival of the fittest" in a "red in tooth and claw" way.

What intrigues me is that seemingly "hidden drive" in a society that keeps sufficient of the population "moral" and caring and compassionate about their neighbours and the world that civilisation continually becomes more civilised rather than less? I appreciate it is an almost impossible question to answer but I would be interested in the perspective of an agnostic. Is it driven purely by some rational sense that, in our long term self-interest, our best interests are driven by being "civilized" and "moral", or is there some greater "unseen power" in creation that drives all of this?

My own sense is that there is something more than "long term self-interest" that drives all of this. There is some kind of "spirit" in Creation or humankind that gives us some kind of moral compass or moral direction. Without that civilisation and creation would simply obey the Law of Entropy and continually revert to a jungle- or desert-like social landscape. Society would end up being ruled by dictators, the Mafia and Outlaw Bikie gangs rather than by the rule of law and democratic government.

Further than the above, I find myself wondering if this insistence by religious leaders on a "personal God" — the emphasis on a "personal" relationship with Jesus, the Holy Mother Mary, all the Angels and Saints — is what keeps diverting religion into this childish and sycophantic style of religiousity rather than a genuine spirituality?


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

locked
  432 views

The question of a "personal God" vs "long term self interest"......

by James, Australia, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 10:46 (346 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

The problem is, Brian, that there really is no individual "long term self interest", because we have our Biblical three score and ten years, with another ten added on by modern medicine. It is still not "long term" for us as individuals.

One can talk sensibly about a "long term" for the species, and it does seem that Darwin's insight is the best explanation yet for why we are the way we are: surival and reproduction.

One of the problems with evolutionary biology and psychology is that we can't turn the clock back and repeat the experiment. All we can do is look at the probabilities from the way things have evolved.

The difficulty is that altruistic behaviour is both adaptive, and it is not, as we can see from the history of human wars, which are generally founded on straight out selfishness. Or, to put it another way, wars are also adaptive in that they ensure the survival of the fittest.

As the human species covers the planet, and we find out more and more about ourselves and about our physical reality, which both helps and hinders us (atomic energy and nuclear weapons)there seems to be a new awareness that we have to cooperate if we are not going to blow ourselves up, or destroy the fragile environment in which we survive. That realization is a cultural change which can change human behaviour, but it is pretty slow. And whatever may have been the adaptive advantages of wars in the past, they have long gone past their use by date.

As for my own personal outlook, I don't think there is any doubt that my parents, schooling and Catholic community had something to do with that - for reasons that I explained before. It does seem that morality is like language - you have to be trained in it. But the point that Paul Crittenden makes is that this training does not necessarily need to be tied to religion, and often it isn't with just as good results. Or it may be tied to an entirely different religion, with equally good results.

But I think there is a difference between a sense of morality and a religious experience. I was talking about the religious experience that would lead one to want to devote your life to an ideal expressed in a particular religion, rather than to a sense of morality, which is also shared with non believers as well. But as young people also joint Buddhist monasteries and Islamic mosques, it does seem that this religious experience is also a kind of universal that is not tied to the particular doctrine.

I don't think you need "someone out there" to have either experience, as can be shown by the devotion of the hundreds of thousands of religions around the world where the "someone out there" is completely different in terms how they are seen and treated.

locked
  398 views
Avatar

The question of a "personal God" vs "long term self interest"......

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 11:04 (346 days ago) @ James

I don't think you need "someone out there" to have either experience, as can be shown by the devotion of the hundreds of thousands of religions around the world where the "someone out there" is completely different in terms how they are seen and treated.

I'm not sure, James. Doesn't the very universality of the experience you point to there suggest there is at least "something out there" — some mysterious hidden force if you like, or some "spirit", rather than a someone — that keeps pulling humanity to some kind of religion?

This is a fascinating conversation and links almost directly into the work I'm doing with Eugene Stockton at the moment in this mini-documentary on his book "The Deep Within: Towards an Archetypal Theology". His argument is that underlying all religions is "something deeper" and his quest, in a sense, is to try and put his finger on what it is? What are the commonalities that drive different peoples to the various religious insights, creeds, theologies and mythologies there are in our world? Eugene left hospital today but will be convalescing for another week with friends before he returns home and we can really get into the recording and filming.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

locked
  380 views
Avatar

The question of a "personal God" vs "long term self interest"......

by Francis @, Kingsgrove, NSW, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 11:20 (346 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

Thanks, Brian. you wrote: 'There is some kind of "spirit" in Creation or humankind that gives us some kind of moral compass or moral direction.' If there is any 'plan' in creation it is a loose one that depends on all the 'atoms' that make up the universe and it is dependant on the communion of minds that are involved in the union of all being. Because there is the human 'element' in all that is, the evolving of the universe depends on that. However the divinity of human and all that is, there is, IMHO, conscience or "spirit" flowing through it all, giving the greater pull towards the divine in us. Of course, Brian, I'm aware that this thinking relates to my view of all being one, a view that has not been seriously contested here. I know is has not been the teaching of the Church but i believe it is contained in the spirit of Jesus' teaching.

Francis


My purpose is to remember the love that created me in God one with my brothers and sisters and with all life. My function is to extend that love and unity each moment to all.

locked
  387 views

A pattern of atheism amongst ex-priests?

by Nicholas @, Monday, June 11, 2012, 12:34 (347 days ago) @ Enda

OK Enda, but it the statement you made is a rather sweeping one, and one of impression on your part only, anecdotal at best.

It is an interesting assertion and some research on it would be interesting indeed.

But if we are going on impressions and anecdotal evidence, my perception does not concur with yours.

One thing that does embitter priests who take other paths is the laicisation racket. Mine took 5 years, and by that time I had children. When it did come, it came with all sorts of prohibitions -- and the effect of them amounted to having to start of again in another career. In my day you were barred from teaching or working in any capacity in Catholic education. It was either agree to that or remain excommunicated, as I had been for 5 years, for being married. Some had to support their families by driving taxis, running bottle shops, etc. And the conditions also affected the spouses. Jobs in Catholic institutions that they were well qualified for were mysteriously not available to them. Laicised religious who were not priests had none of that.

Diocesan priests generally had it harder than religious order priests. Bishops gave no support, and most diocesan priest colleagues regarded those leaving as having left the club, and contact ended -- one or two loyal exceptions. I can verify this same story for many, to the point that it is an established pattern.

I go into the above as it illustrates why many diocesan 'ex-priests' develop a more critical stance than ex-religious. Generally, the path has been a tougher one.

You use the term 'gave it all away'. It's a careless term. What on earth does it mean? Aren't we all here many and varied (catholic)? Concerning 'ex-priests', many have rethought who they are, what their God might really be, what the gospel message really is, what faith is, what faith community they might belong to. You do a home-school pressure cooker theology when you are plunged into the circumstances I have described.

We are talking about complex stuff here, and labels and sweeping generalisations don't help.

locked
  531 views

Having read Burnheim

by Macbee, Australia, Monday, June 11, 2012, 01:00 (347 days ago) @ Enda

God Enda

I am not as intellegent as you or am i able to write like you but it sound like to me that there is a bitterness in your life and i urge you to try and rid this from your soul because that is where bitterness lerks. i may not be able to spell sometimes or answer some of the posts due to my saint vitas dance which causes me to forget what i have read, i feel sad that i am not able to do this but Enda god as we know him and how we were taught about him is there for us he will nevr leave you if you ask him to help you especially with your anxiety this disorder causes you to worry deeply about everything and nothing it makes things bigger than what they really are. i know priests and Nuns that have left the order and none of them have left their faith nuns have married and had great marriages, and some of the Priest i know have hit the drink because they have been disapointed in themselves that they could not carry on with their vocation that they believed that they would have for the rest of their lives. Three beautiful men that joined together left together because children came to them about being abused they went to their Bishop and he took them into his office one by one and offered them 100,000 dollars each to forget it they threw it down on the floor at his feet saying God help you you bastard and just left together, one marre\ied an x nun the other travelled the world helping people in need and the other almost drank himself to death but had the courage to give it up when he was fifty and has stayed sober since helping people who have drank as his vocation in life. I do sometimes write things that just come out without thinking and when i read it i think where the hell did that come from and feel bad. try to meditation it has saved my life i do it for two hours a day an hour in the morning and then from two/three just before i pick my grandson up from School. if i did not get onto this i would never of been able to go and get custody of my little boy and ceratinly never would of been able to walk into the Childrens court and represent myself as a woman who left school at 14/10months and Koori even the magistrate said she had never heard of such a woman doing as i did,Enda nobody saved me but myself.

God bless

Macbee

locked
  510 views

Having read Macbee

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Monday, June 11, 2012, 10:34 (347 days ago) @ Macbee

Hi Macbee. I was replying to James and trying to explain why I still believe in God even though I suspect he is right that the Church may be beyond reform.

While I believe in God it is not the horrible God I grew up with. The God I grew up with was like Big Brother in George Orwell's 1984 always looking over my shoulder waiting for me to do something wrong then arranging a sudden and unprovided death for me. I grew up with a frightening, mean God whose only interest was in making me behave myself.

I found eventually that if that is what God is like I do not believe in him.

Gradually through the psalms and other bits of scripture and through Teresa of Avila and a few other mystics (not all of them Catholic and not all of them Christian) I found a God who is Protector and so many other things that make my life worthwhile.

And though my writing may sometimes sound a bit rough I am one of the least bitter people I have ever met.

And don't worry about your spelling. The message gets through okay.

locked
  497 views

Having read Macbee

by Macbee, Australia, Monday, June 11, 2012, 11:19 (347 days ago) @ Enda

My dear Enda

While going off to sleep last night listening to the rains fall from the heavens i said good night to you. I know well all of us were frightned little children and eny thing we did that they the adults of the church said was wrong we were terrified that the devil would get us. O was told the the devil waould sleep with me evry night wrapped around my spine by the Nun that i told when iwas 11 years what the priest was doing, i can stil see my little round face looking up at her all red with fear then there was fear for another four and half years. Enda some how i was ablr to see that through the day as i walked along the river behind the house where i grew up all the beautiful things that were around me but every night until iwas 53 a had nightmares about the most appauling thigs then i just got upand went to work. Working for my beautiful family in Vaucluse from the age of 19years gave me hope. the love and support i had from them was amazing still to this day they have always kept in contact with me seeing them every time i go to Sydney. I wondered why i wa not bitter with what happened to me and thought why only me when there was ten of us and when i told my brothers and sisters i said that i was sorry if this unearth anything and if it did it was then their journey. While i was having my treatment in two private Clinics that the Church paid for i had two massive fits this was the best thing that ever happened to me it released all the tendion and fear that had been stored inside me especially my breathing which was only coming from my chest cavity the next morning when i woke after these fits i said my God i am breathing. I am so glad you answered my post and so glad that now you have an understanding of you own PERSONAL GOD which i have and only have had since 2003 at the age of 53.

Goodness it has not stopped raining she has been pelting down for three days, when it stops though we will have everything green with a nice clean air i love that.


Macbee

locked
  479 views
Avatar

Chris Geraghty's new book, another review.

by BarryS ⌂ @, 'Uralla, NSW', Sunday, June 10, 2012, 05:46 (348 days ago) @ Enda

Thank you Enda for this excellent review of Chris Geraghty's new book.

I have known nearly every priest mentioned either having studied with them in the Seminary or worked with them in my years of working in the church in Sydney.

You brought back so many memories I have. I am still active in our local church, however I work under my rules not thr local Bishop & priests's rules.

While working in Sydney I had several priests removed from their parishes for various offences against the laity & I had several Bishops stopped from getting any further promotions, including our local Bishop in Armidale who stood down recently.

There are so many stories to tell that are finally coming through.

May God continue to be with out real church of the laity.

BarryS


I live for those that love me
For those that know I am true
For the heaven that smiles above me
& awaits my coming too
For the cause that needs assistance
For the wrong that needs resistance
For the future in the distance
& the good that I can do.

locked
  637 views

Chris Geraghty's new book, another review.

by curlie que @, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 10:59 (348 days ago) @ BarryS

You are a very brave man Barry - wish there were more like you:clap: :clap: :ok: :ok: :waving: :heart: :rose: :roses4me: :roses4me: :roses4me: :roses4me: :roses4me: :roses4me: :roses4me:

locked
  580 views
Avatar

Do these sort of priests still exist? And how much sway do they have today?

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 14:28 (347 days ago) @ Enda

There is another interesting aspect to Chris Geraghty's book and that is his identification of a group of what might be described as "yobbo priests" who seem to have targeted him. Here's a description of the kind — and he actually names some of them — who caused a bit of grief to him. In this excerpt he's describing a confrontation he was having over the phone with a Fr Jack (nickname "Abo" because of his dark tan) Haseler. Elsewhere in the book he decribes them as the sort who sat up the back at meetings of the clergy ready to rubbish everyone and everything being said at the front and the sort who never opened a book on theology after they left the seminary.

The question that's been exercising my mind after reading this is if these sort of people are still a significant element in the Australian priesthood today? I can certainly believe they were at an earlier time, especially under the reign of JPII and coming out of the earlier culture of the 1950s, but my sense is that there are fewer of them around today and the "power" in the institution has now shifted to a less aggressive sort more in the mould of a Benedict XVI.

Frankly I could never understand what this element Geraghty describes were attracted to in the priesthood. You'd think there would have been a zillion other callings in life that might have better suited their talents. Was it purely some "lust for power" that drove their entire behaviour?

Haseler began to rubbish the Manly seminary and the young men who were turned out from there after seven years of routine training – fledgling priests inflicted onto unsuspecting parishioners and parish priests. He thought they needed to be "bum-hardened" in the seminary, so they could endure the inevitable kick in the guts afterwards. The young clergy were too negative, too critical and too intellectual. They had no devotion to the Rosary and they were not interested in parish novenas or working to continue the regular housie nights. They were useless – some of them dangerous.

Abo was a bully and, like most bullies, he prided himself on his ignorance. But his clergy mates admired his macho style. He used to race fast cars, played cards into the early hours of the morning and drank his whiskey straight. He rode a surfboard with the best and water-skied like a champion. He was welcome at any party in town – plenty of laughs around him. A physically attractive man with a loud personality and celibate. The women loved him. Since the beginning of Genesis, it seems that some members of the female team have been attracted to forbidden fruit – or so I've be told.

But Jack was also a man's man. What endeared him to many of his colleagues was that he was anti-intellectual and aggressively reactionary. It was a popular stand among some of the clergy, especially the more senior ranks. Jack was a fully paid-up member of the old brigade, whose world was founded on blind loyalty, military obedience, on acceptance of simple dogmas and on an unquestioning faith in the Vatican, but not in the Second Vatican Council. There was no denying that in his own presbytery he was an affable and hospitable host.

As we settled into our telephone conversation, Jack mounted his hobby horse and rode her with energy. He joined in the old clergy attack against "book-learning" and indulged in the senior parish priest's defence, based on experience in the field. I sat with the blower to my ear, thinking my own thoughts, amazed by the vehemence of Abo's outburst, wondering what on earth had set him off.

They were all the same, clerical versions of Bruce Ruxton – the Tosi brothers, Lou and Frank, the Paine boys, Frank Mecham, Les Baggott, Bishops Bull Muldoon, Jimmy Carroll, Algie Thomas and Bishop Bill Murray – Abo Haseler and his push. They all presumed they had been blessed with the common touch and that they had their fingers on the pulse. They had the answers (all supplied years before in the seminary). But only a handful of their parishioners were asking the dusty questions for which they had the formula. Their clerical life had isolated them. The sweet, fawning talk of a coterie of their special parishioners had spoilt them. Ordinary people communicated with them in ritualistic jargon. The collar, the cassock and the pedestal, had removed these black-coated men from the grubby, complicated realities of life. There was no table at which they sat, where people could look them in the face and tell them "the God's honest truth". They saved up their personal lives for Monday's at St Michael's Golf Course, or the local squash court, or Lewisham tennis courts where Abo and his episcopal mate, Bill Murray, and others played together. For the remainder of the week they were clerics on duty, stiff agents of the Roman Catholic Church which was centred in the Eternal City and which was, in turn, the spokesman for God himself.


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

locked
  723 views

Do these sort of priests still exist? And how much sway do they have today?

by Enda, Eastwood, Australia, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 14:32 (347 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

If there is power in it there will be bullies in it. This is as true of the Church as it is of any other human setup. Sad but true.

locked
  647 views
Avatar

Do these sort of priests still exist? And how much sway do they have today?

by Brian Coyne ⌂ @, LINDEN, NSW, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 14:47 (347 days ago) @ Enda

If there is power in it there will be bullies in it. This is as true of the Church as it is of any other human setup. Sad but true.

Yes, I can believe that, Enda, and I think you can still see it in the behaviour of a small group of the episcopal leaders today. I suspect in the past though that they were a much larger and far more vocal group amongst the broad body of ordinary priests. I suspect their numbers amongst the broad body of priests has been significantly reduced simply through death and ageing and the new vocations that are still being attracted do not include significant numbers from this segment in society. Priesthood is simply no longer attractive to this sort of person. I may be wrong in my assessment and that's why I ask the question. It would be an interesting question to put to Chris McGillion and I might do that as I owe him a phone call. He interviewed a lot of priests for his book "Our Fathers".


[image]Brian Coyne
[Editor & Publisher]

locked
  638 views

They Still Exist

by Dennis, Monday, June 11, 2012, 12:32 (347 days ago) @ Brian Coyne

I visited family in southern Sydney recently at Christmas and encountered the ockerism and shallowness at two Masses - the sort of thing that probably drove Enda away from Eastwood. I was so disappointed at the Vigil my wife and I went back on Christmas morning only to experience the same again. I knew the priest and so greeted him for Christmas. He was simply a rude smart-arse back to me, and in front of my wife and friends. I would be interested to see further research on this issue mentioned by Brian. Many of these types of priests would be suffering from various levels of depression. All the things described by Chris Geraghty - fast cars, whiskey, tennis, surfing, women's attention - cannot make a priest happy. They leave him an empty, frustrated, and probably, masturbating celibate. That makes these sad blokes doubly dangerous to parishes and individuals, especially the troubled and vulnerable.

locked
  550 views
Forum IndexCatholica Home Page
127300 Postings in 19211 Threads, 603 registered members, 63 users online (1 members, 62 guests)

Total Visitor Stats at 1615hrs 04May2013 [Counting since 1 Jan 2007]

Total Visits

Pages Read

Hits

Data Downloaded

3,473,394

52,632,870

433,165,746

2.9Tb

Unique Visitors

2007

2008

2009

2010

2011

2012

Annual Total:

59,218

188,768

262,250

309,848

324,390

370,470

video.catholica.com.au
Featured Video

Michael Morwood: "The Challenge in Resurrecting Jesus in Society Today"Michael Morwood: "The Challenge in Resurrecting Jesus in Society Today" In this address given to WATAC (Women and the Australian Church) members on 26th March 2013, Michael Morwood outlines the challenges he sees the Church facing in the years ahead. This address was given in the theatrette of the NSW Parliament at a meeting to celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Second Vatican Council. 33m 34s [Commentary on the Catholica where this address was published on 29Mar2013] | [WATCH THE VIDEO]

Reports 028: 29Mar2013Reports Index

Australian Catholic Religious Against Trafficking in Humans
Thank you for visiting Catholica
This site was developed and is maintained by
Vias Tuas Communications
www.viastuas.net.au
Catholica Home Page | Contact