hahahha Roy your Halo is slipping that is so good Ann

Oh, you are wicked.

But thanks.

Stephen

is the cause of stuff like this which I found refreshing when I first saw it.
Is why I still crank it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98I85ceICRM

So many shocked by the irreverence....which just makes you laugh and say "catch up!!" ...thrills me strangely still ....am completely over the bullshit myself

one things for sure ....they brought it on themselves!!

Onya dood, don't let the bastards get you down hey!

just reading this and glad you are past it

One thing I do know: I do not ever want to re-experience the way I was feeling when I was in front of that computer writing those suicide notes: Never. This is why I worry about everything collapsing around me should things not work out.

Now, tell me were true free will (especially according to the Catholic church) was involved in all this? If nothing else, they had/have freely chosen to 'kill' me.

I had a go a few times but kept screwing it up ....didn't try hard enough obviously ....punched a car into a tree at 140 and all I did was get a big head ache from going through the windscreen and the big insult was that I had to walk home and was a sick puppy for a week or so
I can laugh about it now but I was in a bad place and I do understand Stephen.
stupid thing is you believe it's the best for your family ...is all you can think of.
But as I said "don't let the bastards get you down!"

My hearts with you Jim ....we need to catch up properly next time ...you piked it last time
(we all know you only really came to the sydney conference for some sydney heart surgery heheheheheee)

However, suicide is a voluntary choice. I do not think the church can or should be blamed for the voluntary acts of other people.

AR

Written by Detective Sergeant Kevin Carson, the reports state that while conducting lengthy inquiries into paedophile clergy, investigators have discovered "an inordinate number of suicides which appear to be a consequence of sexual offending.

No comment required!

See my response here if you want.

http://www.catholica.com.au/forum/index.php?id=99889

It's happening and we need to keep it going.

Oh and sorry, Peter, thank you do much for putting this up here.

My wife found a friend of ours, a manic depressive after she had taken a large overdose of sleeping pills. She was unconscious for ages but survived. She told us, "I just wanted to be really asleep." Both of us understood having seen the mental pain she so often experiences. In that kind of mental anguish I think no one could make a rational choice.

Shame is a cause of deep mental anguish. When it is shame that was thrust on you, for example when a grown man who was your teacher or priest anally rapes you when you are in primary school, it can be much worse than something you chose to do. And the shame is heightened because you cannot understand why it happened and your trust has been shattered.

Sometimes it is possible to feel so miserable that dying seems the only alternative.

Anything that is the only alternative is not a choice.

AR I think you are talking through your hat.

http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/neil-mitchell-blog/victoria-police-catholic-church-noncoope...

You're right Kay, we so need friends and support around us AND we need to feel free enough to let them know if we are deeply troubled. One sad thing about being a man is that doesn't come as naturally as it should (hence the men's group I got involved in - such depth of sharing DID become natural and then you wondered what all the homophobic fuss was about.

When I was going through what I was (as in this poem and at that time) none of my employers or family knew any of it: I have become expert in faking it - abuse victims are. The men's group did have some idea and when it all came out with Liz, they, too were a great support. The church, well, they couldn't or didn't want to cope - my existence contradicted their divine terms of reference so I had to be gotten rid of a process that so many others of know all too well now.

Kay, keep talking, keep hoping: A big lesson about despair I learned during all this is that despair is so crushing because it assumes you know what's a round the corner and it is always black and negative: Thing is we DON"T know what's around the corner and it is as likely to be positive as it is negative and could even be the best thing that's ever happened to us. If we truly don't know, then why not believe the positive version rather than the negative? It's what we call living in HOPE.

Be filled with this hope

Stephen

"WE ARE WORTH THE EFFORT"
That is so true.

I figure that I just have a sucesptibility to deep depressions, particularly during times of crises & life transitions. But they are NOT genetically pre-determined inevitable outcomes.

At least I have learned enough to ask for help & rely on VERY GOOD CLOSE friends & relatives for support during the dark times.
As the older ones leave or die off during the decades, I must force myself to go through the troubles & doubts of making new deep bonds.

That is part of what all the Catholicans here have come to mean to me.

Only for many, it is not just one night, but months or years of wrestling with one's demons.

Kay, thank you for saying this. I was going to come back and add it to my previous ones but thought I might be overdoing it.

I wanted to emphasis the fact that my almost suicide was the culmination of months and months of despair and emotional blowouts where I was waking up in the middle of the night with words flying through my head and getting up and manically writing them down as poems: I wrote about 20 poems during that time: Wanna read one? A bit full on and I'll probably remove it a little later. It was written when I left the church for a while (because it had left me) and went searching for help in the men's movement which had its good points but also it not so good ones (hence the emotional blowouts - I wasn't ready for it all and there was no one to monitor or contain what was coming to the surface - one of the better parts is a thing called Common Ground - if any men are interested here's a site to visit even though I haven't been involved for quite a few years now - http://menswellbeing.org/clubportal/ClubStatic.cfm?clubID=2384&pubmenuoptID=25376 ):

Anyway, I tried to find help elsewhere but none was of the proper type. So, I was alone, I had lost my career and told I would never work for them again. Why? I still don't fully know. Was it because I was weak, broken, or starting to get angry and make demands (some might call it asking for compassion and love).

Oh, Kay, it is just such a horrible pit to be in; horrible, and so hard to get out of. But you can and we do, thanks in no small part to secular therapies which can help you leave the cult that kept you from ever believing you were worth the effort.

Thank God I did find a good doctor 5 years ago but not until I had seriously searched and asked people who were in the know. I was sick of whacky people and therapists and religion and superstition and just wanted a sane secular, straight therapist who specialised in childhood sexual abuse and trauma recovery. I found one and I have never looked back.

Suicidal thoughts afflict the depressed just as deeply as Christ's night of agony in the garden on Holy Thursday, which we just commemorated...
Only for many, it is not just one night, but months or years of wrestling with one's demons.

How long, AR, do you think you might last without any hope??

What has never been publicized is the large numbers of early Christians who recanted permenantly in the face of threats & torture.
We have some inklings of those numbers in 15th & 16th century England under the Tudors, eg.
How much worse is it when the torture & fears are induced by oneself, as well as others' reinforcements?

"Pray, therefore, that you not be put to such a test"-- JC himself.

I am stronger now and those who tried and still try to dominate me cannot and do not any longer and they, therefore, cannot really get to me anymore. While this memory I have expressed above was so very painful at the time, I am not collapsing in a heap as I tell it now. It's OK. I'm OK. I only tell it to give an inside view of what went on at least inside my head when I could have. would have suicided had I not been stopped. There was, as Desi said, to me at the time, absolutely no way out: I was backed into a corner of pain and fear and been abandoned it seemed and in a state of mind which could never be considered able to make a free choice. But I hadn't been abandoned, I at least had a caring wife (and children even though I seemed to think that they would be better off without me at the time, seriously). It is those who don't have this or friends that I feel so deeply sad for and who maybe more likely to carry through their self-annihilation.

There was once a man who had so much unresolved shit in is life that he broke down. 90% of that shit was a direct result of sexual abuse as a child/adult within the church. It was also a result of the way he was treated when he sought the comfort and assistance of that church he loved and had given his life to to date.

But when that comfort and support was cruelly withdrawn because those involved felt far too uncomfortable to deal with the likes of him, his life avalanched downhill until one early morning, 6 years ago, he found himself at his computer writing suicide notes to his wife and children, tears streaming down his face as he sobbed uncontrollably because of the words he was writing to the family he loved. He was in an almost both manic and depressive state, flying high with adrenalin yet in such a place of sorrow and darkness that there was absolutely nothing to do but kill himself. He had it all planned: After he finished writing the notes he was going to drive out to a very old country cemetery past Ipswich and overdose on sleeping pills while sitting in his car in the quiet country road next to the cemetery. (He hated any form of physical violence even against himself so couldn't consider a violent way of dying). He couldn't understand why that was where he wanted to die but it just seemed the place to go: he and his his family had driven past there and stopped for a break to read the historical headstones a few months before and it was somehow beautiful and peaceful.

But as he went to get into the car his wife woke up and came to him asking, "What are you doing? Where are you going?" This somehow snapped him out of his state of mind and they talked carefully.

But something did die in him that day, and remains dead.

I am still waiting for that part of me to rise again. And something in me still hopes that the church will be somehow partly instrumental in that as it had been so instrumental in almost killing me.

One thing I do know: I do not ever want to re-experience the way I was feeling when I was in front of that computer writing those suicide notes: Never. This is why I worry about everything collapsing around me should things not work out.

Now, tell me were true free will (especially according to the Catholic church) was involved in all this? If nothing else, they had/have freely chosen to 'kill' me.

you got to stop the hurt...
you got to stop the pain...
you got to stop the torment...
you got to stop the thrashings...
you got to stop the bad words...
you got to stop them saying mean things about your mother...
you got to stop the naked whippings... tied across the bed at night times...
you got to stop the name calling...
you got to stop the rape of your body...
you got to stop the rape of your soul...
you got to stop the cold baths in Jayes fluid...
you got to stop the rubbing of your face into your wet urine sheets...
you got to stop the hitting of your knuckles with the side of the ruler every day...
you got to stop the sitting on a stool in a corner and the other children to laugh at you...
you got to stop them from force feeding of magets in your food...
you got to stop the from throwing you into the swimming pool, for wetting your bed each day...
you got to stop them from making you wear your wet sheets at breakfast time, each morning...
you got to stop them from throwing the wooded blackboard dusters at you each day...
you got to stop them from pinching you for nothing at all...
you got to stop them from making you wear sacks for clothes...
you got to stop them calling you a number, instead of your name...
you got to stop them from putting your head down the toilet each day...
you got to stop them from locking you in dark rooms and cupboards...
you got to stop them from pulling you by your hair and throwing you against the walls...
you got to stop them from making you get on your knees and walking on little stones, on your knees...
you got to stop them from making you clean your teeth with salt...
you got to stop them

you got to stop them... there is so much more... and this is what I was trying to get away from... when I was 12 years old... and then again at 19yeas old... I had to end the pain... and I could not... I had to get away from it all... Ann

suicide is a voluntary choice.
AR

I think that is a quite extraordinary statement.

From everything I know and have read on the subject (putting aside euthanasia), suicide is something people do when the balance of their mind is disturbed, since all living things normally have a strong inbuilt survival instinct.

Those who commit suicide are extremely unhappy and are unable to see any way out of their situation.

It becomes anything but a 'voluntary' choice and whatever the cause of that suicide it is not the person themselves who is to be blamed.

It's we who should learn to forgive and not judge.

Walk in our shoes for a day AR... you do not think of killing yourself... when you do it... all you want is to finish the pain... hurt and torment... which you are going through... you do not get peace from counseling... it is no good... and as for the catholic church counseling... Well... it is worse... ask any of us survivors that... and we will tell you the same...

You want the abuse to STOP... you want it all to go away... we do not think at that time... of dieing... just for it to STOP... No you have it so wrong AR... you know that the abuse... is going to happen again tomorrow... and at night times... and there is nothing you can do about that... no mater what you say to them... or try to get away from them... you get thrashed more... that night... the abuse NEVER goes away... Ann

But they may well be the reason victims suicide

So,

I dedicate this to those who believe suicide is a free choice without any influence:

AR, I do hope that this position is not held because it has become a way of coping with the death of someone close: In that case I would not be so harsh.

LYRICS

"Please Bleed"

Make me feel like a beggar
Make me feel like a thief
Make me feel like a battle, that cannot end in peace
Make me feel like running, as if I've lost my nerve
Make me feel like crying, tears I don't deserve

Please bleed
So I know that you are real
So I know that you can feel
The damage that you've done
Who have I become
To myself I am numb, I am numb, I am numb

Is this really living? Sometimes it's hard to tell
Or is this just a kind of gentler hell?
Turn out the lights
And let me stare into your soul
I was born and bled for you to hold

Please bleed
So I know that you are real
So I know that you can feel
The damage that you've done
Who have I become
To myself I am numb, I am numb, I am numb

Never said thank you
Never said please
Never gave reason to believe
So as it stands
I remain on my knees
Good lovers make great enemies

Please bleed
So I know that you are real
So I know that you can feel
The damage that you've done
Who have I become
To myself I am numb, I am numb, I am numb

AR - Can you begin to appreciate how much damage is done to a victim's personality by the abuse that has been inflicted on their most intimate selves?

That damage is recognised by all responsible professionals who work with and alongside victims as truly catastrophic. Many victims relate feelings that include complete loss of self esteem. Their lives can be so damaged that life doesn't seem worthwhile - and that's a reflection of how they've been hurt - not what others might call a rational attitude, but is a very understandable one given what's happened to them. Abuse can totally dominate a victim's life and I find it cold and heartless (I nearly typed "Hart-less") to say "suicide is a voluntary choice".

It's not voluntary in the normal sense since the victim's judgement has been seriously damaged by his or her experience.

I would say the church can and should be blamed for the damage done to people by those whom the church has put in positions of almost unrestricted power.

The church can and should be especially blamed for leaving abusers in power and for moving them to new locations when abuses were first reported.

Note that as particular examples, Ridsdale, Day and others were moved to many parishes during their careers - many more moves than most priests, and some of those moves appear to have followed reports of abuse. The church authorities should be held responsible, as would say a business organisation that ignored warnings of a a faulty product and so allowed consequent damage to occur.

AR, have ever been through a period of suicidal depression?

I do not dismiss the horrible suffering of the victims or excuse the evil acts of the priests concerned or condone the callous response of the church.

However, suicide is a voluntary choice. I do not think the church can or should be blamed for the voluntary acts of other people.

The church spokesman also said the coroner should be given evidence of suicide by victims of abuse.

Victims and their relatives have called on Premier Ted Baillieu and Attorney-General Robert Clark to create an inquiry with royal commission powers to examine sexual abuse involving religious organisations.

Link Below

40 Clergy Abuse Victims 'Took Own Llives'

Keep Strong Roy... hang in there... and know we are all with you... Ann

Rob Walsh

Rob Walsh, whose cousin Martin, and brothers Noel and Damien committed suicide after being abused.

CONFIDENTIAL police reports have detailed the suicides of at least 40 people sexually abused by Catholic clergy in Victoria, and have urged a new inquiry into these and many other deaths suspected to be linked to abuse in the church.

In a damning assessment of the church’s handling of abuse issues, the reports say it appears the church has known about a shockingly high rate of suicides and premature deaths but has "chosen to remain silent."

Written by Detective Sergeant Kevin Carson, the reports state that while conducting lengthy inquiries into paedophile clergy, investigators have discovered "an inordinate number of suicides which appear to be a consequence of sexual offending.

Martin Walsh.

"The number of people contacting this office to report members of their family, people they know, people they went to school with, who have taken their lives is constant. It would appear that an investigation would uncover many more deaths as a consequence of clergy sexual abuse," one of the reports states.

The revelations will increase pressure on Premier Ted Baillieu and state Attorney-General Robert Clark to respond both to the growing calls from victims for a broad inquiry into clergy sexual abuse, and to the February recommendation of Justice Phillip Cummins for a formal inquiry.

The reports by Sergeant Carson were dated September last year and February this year. The most recent report details the "premature deaths of young men in the years following sexual assault by Catholic fraternity".

Noel Walsh.

The report links at least 40 suicides to the sexual abuse perpetrated by a small number of paedophile clergy, including Gerard Ridsdale, Bryan Coffey, Paul Ryan, Robert Best and Edward Dowlan.

One of the reports includes a list of victims' names, dates of births, manner of death and the locations where the abuse is suspected or known to have taken place, including St Leo's primary school in Box Hill, St Joseph's in Geelong and St Alipius in Ballarat East.

Among those named as suicide victims are brothers Damien and Noel Walsh, and their cousin Martin Walsh. Another brother, Rob Walsh, who was also sexually abused by Best and Ridsdale and testified against them in court, told The Age last night that an inquiry was needed because of "the church's disregard for the law and disregard for victims".

Damien Walsh.

Most of the victims, who include a student who was dux of his school, were abused between the 1960s and late 1980s.

Sergeant Carson wrote that at the end of last year, "the sheer number of young men who were abused/suspected to be the victims or abuse, and who had met a premature death, continued to grow... The list does not take into account the deaths of other ex-students at the various schools the [paedophile] Christian Brothers taught at.

"The list does not take into account the many, many attempts of suicide made by victims of [clergy] sexual assault.

Link Below to Read More

Australia Catholic Church's Suicide Victims

You Don't mind if I join you... on your post Tony... Thank you so much for your support... and for your site... you have helped to push this inquiry... even further to the top... Ann

CONFIDENTIAL police reports have detailed the suicides of at least 40 people sexually abused by Catholic clergy in Victoria, and have urged a new inquiry into these and many other deaths suspected to be linked to abuse in the church.

In a damning assessment of the church’s handling of abuse issues, the reports say it appears the church has known about a shockingly high rate of suicides and premature deaths but has "chosen to remain silent."

Written by Detective Sergeant Kevin Carson, the reports state that while conducting lengthy inquiries into paedophile clergy, investigators have discovered "an inordinate number of suicides which appear to be a consequence of sexual offending.

"The number of people contacting this office to report members of their family, people they know, people they went to school with, who have taken their lives is constant. It would appear that an investigation would uncover many more deaths as a consequence of clergy sexual abuse," one of the reports states.

The revelations will increase pressure on Premier Ted Baillieu and state Attorney-General Robert Clark to respond both to the growing calls from victims for a broad inquiry into clergy sexual abuse, and to the February recommendation of Justice Phillip Cummins for a formal inquiry.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/churchs-suicide-victims-20120412-1wwox.html#ixzz1rrZv...