The DIVINE or OBLIVIAN.

Intersting concept - we are afraid of death! Are we afraid because we know that we have to face the ULTIMATE TRUTH of our lives ?

Are we afraid, unconsciously, of the fact that our lives may not have been as perfect asit may have been, namely that we have misused the opportunities given to us and now the time has came to face that fact?

Stephen, thank you for responding. Your concern for me and out of the ordinary post is appreciated. I wish there were more that would attempt to clarify thinking about our relationship with God.

Kierkegaard is one that I have read but forgotten as far as individual thoughts are concerned. My readings of the past were read by me and what pertained to me in the authors’ thoughts became my shared thoughts. Although I speak of absence of separation between what we hold as creation and Godde, I acknowledge an individuality that is absorbed (and transfigured) but not disappeared into Godde. My drop of water in the ocean retains its individuality. My thought of union with God is not mere attachment but a union that has its being in the Greater Union. The uniting element would be Divine Love. Does that fit into Kierkegaard’s thinking, Stephen?

I agree that Jesus teaches that our individual existence matters deeply to God. Jesus also holds (I believe) that our existence here is intimately being with Being that is God and wants us to awaken to that. Does that mean the same for you as actualized, Stephen?

Although there is much confusion in me because of the superimposed fundamentalism of my education, I am convinced of my union with God and that humanity has the ability to become aware of God and of the union if it liberated its mind. God’s Presence can be pushed aside but it never leaves.

Despite having fundamentalist teaching placed in the normal situation throughout throughout my education and provocative books banned, I lived a sort of dual existence, holding normal teaching as the vestments of the world but knowing there was a naked me that was my mystical self. Whenever fundamentalist thought and practice caused me pain and confusion, I would retire to my inner room and be naked, finding peace and joy where it was,for me, in the 'real' world. My vision of union was never considered fantasy although I was frequently told to 'get your feet on the ground, Brownie', as if truth was stored there and nowhere else. I am a rationalist in so far as knowing my thinking is logical and sure.

Stephen, i accept what you write here:

As for non-existence after death, it makes no sense to me as a Christian, only as an atheist. Either way I have come to accept that it doesn't matter; that God understands our inability both emotionally and rationally to fully know and therefore accept.

When I consider my place in the universe I cannot but know I am fragile in my existence here. I am living out an existence here but I aware of being other than this existence. Is this a dream of my making thinking me lost from my true being? Am I working out my existence to reawaken to my true being? Am I finding unconditional love as the only awakening? The errors of my ways (sins) kept me from awakening. Leaving the past behind and living with love in the precise present moment is bringing awareness to me or an awakening from the dream. Am I any worse than Hitler or Ossima bin Laden or any pedophile? A lesson of Jesus I learnt early as consistent with union with God is to be free of judgment of the essence of things. I may be horrified, and I am often, but only God knows the essence.

Believing in intimate (can it be otherwise?) union with all that is, my happiness is never complete unless it contributes to the happiness of all that is in Creation, not just humans but the whole and universal environment.

The little I have heard of Howard Blake's "Benedictus" and what you have told me of it, makes me desire to hear it in total. I agree with what you wrote and I add it here:

It is so full of compassion and human insight - the lines quoted above when listened to as sung in this piece, just get the message across so, so much, the message that I have tried to express in this post - "for he knoweth our frame" He knoweth our frame. Francis, Godde KNOWS and S/he knows you, me, all of us individually and I for one want to believe in that Godde, not a god constructed by the machinations of unresolved men and women who seem more than happy to allow someone to burn in some hell somewhere - this just makes NO sense at all, none, unless it corresponds with ones inner damaged self-conversations.

Francis, I feel your concern, I know it, too.

A while ago I wrote much about my favourite philosopher, Kierkegaard. Why I like him more than most is because he so acknowledges the individual's existence, and, in relationship with God, not absorbed/disappeared into God, but as a two way affirmation of each other's existence and of a bond of Love in that two way affirmation.

Somehow, I have come to understand that this was what Jesus also wanted to get across and which made/makes Jesus' teachings (and incarnation and as a representative human) unique in all religions: Jesus taught that our individual existence matters deeply to God, AND, that that existence can relate personally (now) with a God who comes to us in order for that to be actualised.

I still somehow choose to believe this, even amidst all my current doubts and confusions: It makes total sense to me as a human being who has been given the ability to conceive of the existence of a God.

Having said all that, the rationalist in me now says that all is construct and poetry. But even so, even if it was, is not then all construct and poetry and we can then choose which is the most fulfilling for oneself and society as a whole? Somehow, that doesn't satisfy me fully: I do not want to be seduced by a fantasy, I want it to be absolutely real, but how can we know, how? We can't except mystically and through choice. And I'm afraid, that's just going to have to be good enough. For some it seems it is even better than rationally knowing. I envy them.

As for non-existence after death, it makes no sense to me as a Christian, only as an atheist. Either way I have come to accept that it doesn't matter; that God understands our inability both emotionally and rationally to fully know and therefore accept. "For HE knoweth our frame, and He knoweth that we are as dust" (Blake's Benedictus) and He has deep compassion for our vulnerable state - this is what Jesus expressed, is it not. And as such God can overlook our errors and 'sins', and even those of the worst offender. It is understandable mercy; But is this justice? Perhaps after a life of pain it is. In the end it is beyond me and out of my hands what God/the Universe does with the likes of Hitler and Bin Laden. God knows and fully understands their whole lives, and their whole contexts, we don't, nor do we have the ability to love these or even our own greatest enemies. But Jesus' Godde does, Jesus' Godde does.

So, Francis, I choose to believe, while in this existence, here and now, that somehow, my individuality is deeply important to Godde: Godde wanted/wants me to EXIST and S/he wants (for my own benefit) for that existence to be somehow in the context of a relationship with Him/Her AND, (and this has been the more difficult part for me) in the context of relationships with Godde in others and in their own individuality, connected, affirming of the other, committed to not just my own happiness but that of the other human beings I happen to have been given the opportunity to share this existence with. However, if, in the end, all this is expressed in a deep and knowing de-individualised oneness, then so be it: Somehow it will make sense and Love.

Francis, your questions made me recall the words and sentiments in this piece of music and I am listening to it as I write: "Thou, Lord, knowest all my longing. No sighs are hidden from thee". from Howard Blake's "Benedictus". (I was a member of the Uni of Qld choir and we performed this in 1983 when Howard Blake was invited to work on it and improve it using our choir - one of the highlights of my life. A magnificent piece of music based on the rule of St Benedict and The Hound of Heaven and written for the 1500th anniversary of St Benedict. It is so full of compassion and human insight - the lines quoted above when listened to as sung in this peice, just get the message across so so much, the message that I have tried to express in this post - "for he knoweth our frame" He knoweth our frame. Francis, Godde KNOWS and S/he knows you, me, all of us individually and I for one want to believe in that Godde, not a god constructed by the machinations of unresolved men and women who seem more than happy to allow someone to burn in some hell somewhere - this just makes NO sense at all, none, unless it corresponds with ones inner damaged self-conversations.

I tried to find a youtube of it but there is none - perhaps a future project. You can find excerpts at this website http://www.howardblake.com/music/Choral/Chorus-Orchestra/31/BENEDICTUS.htm - scroll down a little).

Hear, Hear! Comments from Nick and Brian . . .

Jesus came to redefine God as the loving parent . . . not the horrible, bloodthirsty, disgusting Jehovah/Yahweh of earlier times!

As a father I ask myself which of my children would I condemn to "eternal punishment" ? And no mattter how they annoy me I can't find it in my heart to condemn them for all eternity - no matter what they may have done or how they may have hurt me - so please don't tell me how God would condemn a soul he created to eternal punishment? What exactly is the parable of the Prodigal Son (Daughter??) about ?

Spot on Nick. I increasingly think a lot of Church doctrine has been thought up by men who have no idea whatsoever of the responsibilities in bringing up a family through to adulthood, and no idea whatsoever of the relationship between father and mothers and their offspring from the point of view of either fathers or mothers.

Just a few points Brian -

HELL - does it exist? Yes? It exists but it is of our own making.
PURGATORY - we live if everyday.

HEAVEN - I don't know !

As for punishment - when we eventually have to face our own TRUTH that, I believe, will be our punishment.

GOD condemning us to hell - GOD is the enbodiment of all GOODNESS, we are the Creation of God (and therefore GOOD), we are the Temples of the Holy Spirit and therefore we all reflect Her perfection and perfectness.
This applies to poor old Lucifer as well - as Lucifer is the creation of God, Lucifer cannot be all BADNESS and EVIL.

As a father I ask myself which of my children would I condemn to "eternal punishment" ? And no mattter how they annoy me I can't find it in my heart to condemn them for all eternity - no matter what they may have done or how they may have hurt me - so please don't tell me how God would condemn a soul he created to eternal punishment? What exactly is the parable of the Prodigal Son (Daughter??) about ?

Don't forget to factor in indulgences!

Loved/fascinated by your post Vynette, too.

All this talk about Purgatory got me thinking abou JPII!

We now 'know' that he is in 'heaven' because 'he who must be obeyed' has told us so.

In that case the time which he spent in Purgatory was less than six years, now bearing in mind what we know about his handling of the Abuse situation and his judgement of Marcial Maciel (bearing in mind, who are we to judge, let alone any other of his venial sins), it should be possible to work out some sort of Purgatory timetable.

I think what he meant is that death is a mystery, and we may have to be content to leave it as just that.

I like that, Robert, not only death but life itself, a wonderful mystery.
One that continues to be full of unanswered questions.

I think that church is not about feeling good because you have all the answers, but rather a community where we encourage each other as we deal with the questions together . . . including this one.

A good description of Catholica.

I have long felt that heaven, Purgatory, and hell are just church constructs to have us sufficiently frightened to accept church authority . . . if you do what we say, and receive the sacraments that only we can give you, then you might go to heaven . . . of course with regard to Purgatory, again if you do what we say, you can get time off from Purgatory.

Of course the idea of "time off" is absurd, when one reflects that going beyond physical life takes one beyond time-space . . . hence "time off" Purgatory or anywhere else makes no sense, because there is no time . . . as we know it.

I have also thought that the one thing that we do take with us when we leave this life is . . . the kind of person that we have become. In other words, if you are a loving person this side of death, you will continue to be some sort of loving entity on the other side. If you are mean and nasty here, then you will be mean and nasty there.

Now we know this is using human physical language to describe a state of which we can't even conceive . . . of course, assuming that there is such a state . . . but most human societies and cultures seem to have made that assumption that there is such a state . . . that life/consciousness/whatever does not end at the physical death of the body.

Probably, IMHO, one of the best books on life beyond life is that by Ian Wilson, an English writer who lives in Brisbane. The book is called Life after Death: the Evidence. It is well worth reading, and was published by Pan in 1997. Wilson gives a balanced picture of NDEs (near death experiences) and the common features of them.

What is interesting is that the judgement . . . and there is clearly a judgement . . . is by the person/entity who has passed on. It's kind of like a replay of the life that is now over . . . as I understand it, like a fast newsreel. The person experiences regret over some of the things they have done . . . and also any hurt and dismay caused to other people. In other words, you experience your own feelings of hurt/joy/etc . . . but at the same time you experience the feelings of hurt/joy/etc of those others involved in the replayed events. To me, this sounds like judgement and Purgatory experienced simultaneously.

If you start from a church perspective, and say that nothing of what is written above could be possible . . . essentially because it contradicts church teaching . . . then go no further. What I have said and what is to come is not for you.

But Wilson, in the final chapter, says something like this . . . "Each of us has to make up our own minds about life after death . . . and to consider the evidence offered. What do I think? On balance, it is more likely that there is life beyond life, and in the end, we shall all know, or we shall not know."
(A paraphrase of a memory . . . sorry).

I remember seeing Rabbi Levy, I think from Sydney, being asked on television whether Judaism allowed for life beyond life, and his answer was that that beyond this life was God's time, and therefore for God to know about. i.e. a question to which there are no definitive answers.

I think what he meant is that death is a mystery, and we may have to be content to leave it as just that. I think that church is not about feeling good because you have all the answers, but rather a community where we encourage each other as we deal with the questions together . . . including this one.

The closest I can think of is some kind of sensory deprivation — which I am told is one of the worst things any human being can inflict on another human being. That's probably why it is so liked by those who engage in torture.

Brian, I realise that you may have been rather busy over the last ten days and could have missed the debate going on in the USA re 'Torture'.

Some people (the right wing Republicans) are asserting that OBL was found/killed due to information gained by the use of 'waterboarding' of prisoners.

They do not now use the word 'torture' but refer to it as 'enhanced interrogation techniques'.

(A term which was adopted by the George W. Bush administration!).

So in future it will be:

'That's probably why it is so liked by those who engage in 'Enhanced interrogation techniques'.

emjaybee

My feelings about purgatory are that you are somewhere in the site of God and the Burning fires of Hell but you are not moving forward to take the hand of God who would welcome you or the site of what we call the Devil you see him and you are left in fear because he is calling you his way but you don't go that way either. As for Heaven i think you are in this place when you are on your death bed knowing you have done the right thing by all Gods People, you have not wanted what other people have, you have just had an acceptance of your life as it has been. These have always been my thoughts and some how i have not been a sick Adult through my life (now 61years) I never get flues or virises and with my three Sister and Mother all with Breast cancer I have always said I will never get it because of the weight I have on my left shoulder which i have always believed has been my Gardian Angels I flick illness of my shoulder when i am around sick people sometimes other people have said don't touch or don't come in I have a bug. So with that said i believe i will go to what we call Heaven because I feel that what i have done so far in life has been the right things and I have no fear of dying and i think when you do have fear of death you know deep inside that you have not done the right thing in life so the fear of the Devil jumps in, I have seen many people struggle to let go of life thrashing around the bed terrifed of the unknown. I have said this on the forum when my younger sisters husband died in the bed next to her after we came back from the hospital i was with her in the bedroom and our Mother came down throught the ceiling as an angel and wrapped her huge wings around us both to comfort us when i saw her she looked young in the face like when i was about 20years old I wispered to Elizabeth "Mummy is here" and we both looked up with that i stubbled backwords and I felt the wings tuck under my arms to hold us up as we both fell to the ground so we would not injure outselves. I had not been with all my Sisters and Brothers together since 1999 this was before i came forward to the Church regarding my abuse I was frightened to see them all together and really was not prepared but I knew that my Mother came that day to tell me to go to the funeral and stand and speak on her behalf, I do not know how I knew to do this as she didn't speak i just knew. This exsperience told me that there was Heaven and Angels that did look after us in life this all so took my recovery to another higher level and more peace came over me. I could never of come forward when Mother was alive she just could not of handle it and I did not want to hurt her faith in the Church which was so strong God Bless her. Boy did I write all that. Thats is my view.

Macbee

Ah Creation! How did Creation manage to get by for 13.7 Billion years without our Church's 'Infallible Revelations' to keep it on track. Hmm. Maybe the Holy Spirit doesn't really need the Holy Roman Church after all.

The protests of all who proclaim they have 'worked all day in the heat of the day' and ask why should someone like Hitler or Ossima bin Laden not be punished

Living this world has its own rewards and punishments. I am responsible for my actions, good or bad (as chosen)and rejoice or suffer the consequences. These consequences may be within me or imposed from outside. How this happens Is a mystery to me. All I can do is live fully the humanity I am and do it in unison with all of Creation.

Francis

I am grateful for what Brian, Vynette and others have written on the subject of afterlife and reward and judgment.

When the ruasch, that has enliven the body called Francis, is due to join, in non separateness, its Creator, I will want to know that I have lived...lived as Jesus suggests we do "to the full"...lived as in union with the God-driven evolution of this Universe...lived as fully utilizing the divine in me and the minerals that make up my body...lived in the unconditional love that is given me to share after the example of Jesus.

In my rejoining my Creator I realize that I release for recycling the 92 or 96 (?) minerals that make up my body and everything else. "My" presence in and with God will continue to be as it was during 'life',though unaware by lapse or neglect of memory.

Whatever about reward or punishment for past 'sins', failure or mistakes, I have no fear for God will not disown me. I will want to know that I have lived, having given the past away (forgiveness)and now living the fullness of life given to me. Were I to be a 'sinner' to the end of my life but then, in the 11th hour, lived in and with divine love and therefore love, I would know that I have lived my humanity and released my ruasch to God. Were I to have appeared to all to remain a 'sinner' to the actual moment of death, I would know that somehow the love of God would prevail. The protests of all who proclaim they have 'worked all day in the heat of the day' and ask why should someone like Hitler or Ossima bin Laden not be punished, I say that, as far as I am concerned, I am the only one here dreaming this existence or that God's ways are not my misguided ways.

How doctrines of heaven, hell, purgatory, reward and pnishment fit in with these my thoughts, I do not know. I do not say the doctrines are wrong. All I know they need to be examined carefuly as Vynette is trying to do for us.

Francis, who want to wake up to see he is in heaven.

Expressed with your usual sterling clarity

It's good and healthy to have some opposition in discussions?!
However after reading John George, I doubt if even George Pell would be too proud of his effort?!
georgeh

...why the Cardinal allows John George to remain off the leash like some sort of Alsation attack dog with no teeth? Think about it. Who's interests are served: the great bulk of the baptised or someone else's?

Thanks for that Vynette. That ought to stir up a bit of discussion on Catholica. I need to mull on it a bit myself but ... but I will return. Very interesting perspectives though from my quick glance through it. It'll be greeted with dead stoney silence everywhere outside Catholica though (except in the naked steeple dancing priest's website). The early ancients wrote the equivalent of fairy tales to help "the simple folk" get their heads around these great mysteries of life and death. Today — and even those quotes you gave from official sources — illustrate how the fairy tale over time becomes transformed into the dogma and today we have the situation where if anyone attempts to explore the mythology of the Fairy Tale they are likely to be condemned to the fires of hell! What a wierd, circular world it all is?

(We've got to go off for a meeting regarding Amanda's new direction so our contributions to Catholica during the day are likely to be non existent. We'll be back this evening.)

Thanks, George. Apart from JPII's excursion into the subject around 1998 I can't recall any major discussion on these subjects in a long, long time.

I wonder what sort of response a person would get if they rocked up to the average priest or bishop in Australia today and asked: "What do we actually mean by heaven, hell, purgatory and a Last Judgment?"

It's interesting that it looks as though Paul Collins' "Best result" looks to be the outcome of the latest Aus Bishops' Plenary and there's to be no statement on the biggest Catholic story that's broken in Australia for yonks. Dead stoney silence. I agree with Paul that, in the circumstances, that IS the best outcome. IT IS ALSO A TRAGEDY THOUGH — another example of where bishops and priests are reduced to silence about all the important questions about life today. Like frightened chooks, virtually everybody who works for the Church these days is reduced to silence across a massive gammut of subject areas today for fear of upsetting the taliban element in our midst. And that is encouraged from the very top of the hen house.

The reason there is effectively no discussion on these big "end time questions" — unless someone like the Pope ventures a few thoughts every five decades or so — is again the same: the friggin' taliban or John F'nnn George*. The poor man even got space in NCR to respond to my posts there and if you've looked in his telephone box today the poor blighter is right out of his tree about what's been on Catholica in recent days. The utter tragedy is that it's not only "end time questions" that are placed in the too hard basket these days, it's becoming almost any subject under the sun unless the taliban element in Catholicism allow it to be on the public agenda.

I also managed to get a graphic and link to Stephen's video on NCR under Richard McBrien's article on Bishop Morris. Before it appeared on NCR it had had about 1300 views and I notice just now that's increased by a further 600 overnight.

http://www.ncronline.org/blogs/essays-theology/removal-bishop-morris#comment-214787

*Fr John George for those not "in the know" is Cardinal George Pell's great contribution to Catholic public relations around the world. Now "stirring the airwaves for Jesus" on NCR as well as in his own telephone box at "True Catholics"!

Brian,

The Church professes her faith in the Athanasian Creed:

"They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire" (Denzinger, "Enchiridion", 10th ed., 1908, n.40).

The Church has repeatedly defined this "truth," e.g. in the profession of faith made in the Second Council of Lyons (Denx., n. 464) and in the Decree of Union in the Council of Florence (Denz., N. 693):

"The souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments" (poenis disparibus).

"That immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God."

These statements contradict what the Bible has to say on the subject in almost every respect. This "doctrine" is derived from the Hellenist concept of the 'immortality of the soul.' Such a concept is foreign to ancient Hebrew thought.

Beginning with Genesis we are told that the 'body' is merely a lifeless lump of clay. The 'soul' is the 'ruach' or 'breath' of life which was given by God originally. Every creature that breathes has a 'soul.'

Just as God breathed the 'ruach' into man, so also the 'ruach' returns to God upon physical death. [Eccl 12:7] The 'ruach' has no separate existence apart from God and therefore cannot be rewarded in an imaginary Heaven or punished in Hell.

The following statements are typical of a recurring theme throughout the Old Testament:

"Our days on the earth are as a shadow and there is no abiding." (1 Chr 29:15) "His breath goes forth, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Ps 146:4) "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything at all...whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-10).

Step by step we see:

1) There is no abiding on the earth
2) When we die our thoughts perish
3) There is no reward or punishment of any kind immediately upon death

The New Testament enlarges further by giving us examples of death, resurrection, and what happens in between.

Unless one is acquainted with the geographical features of Jerusalem, the symbolic meaning of the word 'Gehenna' ('Hell') will not become apparent.

Gehenna is the Valley of the Son of Hinnom south-east of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. (Gai Ben Hinnom in Hebrew)

In the time of Jesus, it was a very deep ravine situated well below a very steep ramp and the gates leading up to the Temple and the Holy Place. It was the local 'rubbish' dump, a place of 'vile' things, animal carcases and the bodies of executed criminals. Permanent fires burned there (according to some stories, with the addition of brimstone) to prevent outbreaks of disease. The Valley of Hinnom had a even more fiery past - hideous practices had been carried out there in the name of Moloch (the old Canaanite Sun-God, Baal). The worship of Moloch involved sacrificing children by making them "pass through the fire". For a graphic description of this place check Jeremiah 19:26.

Human sacrifice, idolatry and ritual impurity eventually became synonomous with Gehenna. Jesus used the word Gehenna to illustrate the spiritual difference between life with God [symbolised by the Temple] and life without God [symbolised by Gehenna]. Life with God meant entering into the coming Kingdom on earth ["strive to enter in"] and Life without God meant exile from the Kingdom, which was likened to the horrors of Gehenna.

The Bible does not speak of life after death in some disembodied state but it does speak of sleeping in the earth until a physical resurrection.

How has it escaped attention that the four days dead Lazarus should have already been condemned to eternal punishment, or be singing in a heavenly choir somewhere before Jesus arrived? If the doctrinal position of immediacy is true that is!

And in any case, biblical 'fire' has nothing to do with literal fire - biblical 'fire' is symbolic for the Word of God which is seen as burning up the stubble of false values and false fronts e.g. "burning the chaff with unquenchable fire." And 'everlasting' doesn't mean everlasting.

Thanks Brian for your thought provoking theology?!
I am sure a lot of us are struggling with those same questions that you raise?!
Although there are many "theologians" around,I/we need to find the ones that show the way?!
Thanks to modern communications etc Catholica can/does play an important part in such a journey?!
georgeh

Between you and me and the gatepost, Nick (LOL — that's why I'm posting it on the internet), personally I don't think we'll be answering to anyone but ourselves. This is actually a bit of deep theology I've mulled on for decades. I honestly don't believe in a judgmental type God — for all my bluster at bishops about "facing the Almighty". I actually and honestly do wonder how many of them actually believe it today. (That's partly why I bait them? LOL)

As I view this end-time theology today this is the actual view I have. I think we have been adequately warned. We all know in our heart of hearts if we've been good people or otherwise — we know whether we have endeavoured to be honest, authentic and have endeavoured to live the truth. If you have ever sat in a court and watched people being sentenced they all know in their heart-of-hearts the real truth of the situation whatever it happens to be that they've been accused of being guilty of. It doesn't require some magistrate, district court judge, supreme court judge or high court judge to tell them what the "real truth" is in their heart of hearts. Judges here on earth though cannot read our "heart of hearts" so the process down here is very flawed (and we've been discussing that in another string down the forum earlier this evening).

Not like being arraigned before some court on earth...

The "final judgement" is often presented as something like some court sentencing down here on earth. I think it is a very misleading model. This isn't some "game" of lawyers or the accused playing word or mental games to try and get off a conviction or lighten some sentence. None of us could "fool" the Almighty even if it was a correct picture of him posing as some kind of High Court Judge or Chief Justice.

I do continue to believe in some kind of final evaluation or accountability for what we've all done with our lives. What I don't perceive of it is in this sense of it being some humungous court experience like some criminal might endure arraigned before the Chief Justice in any of our Supreme Courts. As I've written before, I think a better model is of viewing God as some kind of janitor or door keeper rather than as some Chief Justice. He's merely there to show us "which door we've chosen" rather than to force us through any door or down into some dungeon that he's chosen for us. We'll know long before God even opens his mouth (if we're going to stick to the old man in the sky metaphor) which destination we've chosen or "how true to life our lives have been". I even have half an intuition that we know these things long before we leave this earthly coil. I bet if most people stopped right now reading this and did some mental evaluation of their lives they'd be able to make some assessment as to whether they have been "true individuals" or whether they've been scammers and fraudsters and playing mental games with themselves (or anyone or everyone else in creation). Have we acknowledged our own trespasses and sought forgiveness from those we have trespassed against — not forgiveness from God but forgiveness from the individuals we stole from or whose lives we screwed up or helped screw up? None of us need God to tell us whether we have or not. We know it in our heart of hearts — and right now. We don't have to wait until "after death" to find out the answers.

Subject to one proviso, we can't "fool ourselves"...

Unless we have some grave mental deficiency (like being a member of the Liberal Party, eh Cliffy?) none of us would fool God as almost every arraigned person on earth endeavours to do before any temporal judge. None of us, and again with the proviso of not being subject to some grave mental deficiency, can fool ourselves in our heart of hearts.

I no longer believe in the childish pictures of heaven, hell and purgatory that were presented to us in primary school (and many never seem to grow out of), nor the pictures painted by the great writers and artists such as Michaelangelo, Dante or Milton. I do continue to believe that there are "after life alternatives or consequences". To me the two major choices are essentially some kind of re-union with the Godhead or this centre of intelligence and love at the heart of all Life and all Creation. The alternative to that is oblivion. But it's not just "no-thing" it's something worse than nothing. I think that's what the great thinkers of the past like Milton and Dante were trying to convey with their word pictures of hell. The closest I can think of is some kind of sensory deprivation — which I am told is one of the worst things any human being can inflict on another human being. That's probably why it is so liked by those who engage in torture. Sustained long enough it is far worse than any physical beating, or even rape or death. The person subjected to it eventually goes stark raving mad mainly because, I understand from the literature on the subject, that they never know when it is going to end.

We choose, not God or some Devil...

The critical point, at least to my way of thinking, is that it is us that chooses, not God nor some Devil. God does not have to judge. And why not? Because he has adequately warned humankind (through the wisdom of the ages, or Divine Revelation — take your pick) that all of our choices in life have consequences. The "final evaluation" or assessment of our lives I liken more where we meet ourselves face-to-face rather than meeting God face-to-face. In a sense we are meeting God face-to-face because we meet "the God within" — we meet our own consciences and souls. And there is no escape from that confrontation unless we go "out of our minds" beforehand in some avoidance strategy — and I suspect many do choose that option.

One domain where I am less clear, the middle position...

The one domain in which my theology is less clear today is in the middle option which traditionally religious people have endeavoured to get their heads around via the notion of Purgatory. I think it is true that all of us suffer to some degree some kind of mental or emotional illness. The consequences of that in the circumstances of this present discussion is there are "grey areas" where we sincerely are not sure if we've done the right thing or not. I have a sense, but don't know, that our purgatory comes before we die. It's some sort of "soul-searching" and if we don't do it ourselves Life itself will do it for us. I honestly don't have a sense of it as something this Mystery we try to condense into the word "God" imposes on us as some sort of half-way house between the bliss of re-joining the Divine and the Oblivion I spoke of earlier. I'm more inclined to believe if there is any "purgation" required for those parts of our lives where we've been less than ideal in living up to the Divine expectation built into all of us I suspect it occurs in the here and now rather than the hereafter. After death time has no meaning. We have already entered eternity, whatever that means — and it certainly does not mean infinite time. It means "the clock stops" and there is "no time". No living human being has ever experienced that state of being.

Coming back to where we started...

To come back to where we started — your last paragraph:

When the time comes Hickey and Pell will not be answering to BXVI for their actions, they will be answering to the same Being that we all will have to give an account of oursleves.

I certainly agree that none of us will be answering to Papa Ratzi — and he certainly won't be standing behind us copping responsibility for our errors of judgment or standing there so that we can point to him and say "he made me think, or do it" as some in the dock at Nuremberg endeavoured to do pointing at the dead Adolf. I neither believe today in "the burning fires of Hell" nor the "big party in the sky with all the pre-deceased relatives and our mums and dads". I do continue to believe that in some way we will be held accountable for the ways in which we thought, and navigated our way through this fascinating adventure called "life". I also agree with the sentiment you expressed that the accountability you or I face will be precisely the same, with the exception of the actual details of our lives, as that faced by any of the ordained people you mentioned. I don't believe in this final "court of judgment" there will be any bias or favoristism shown to anyone. Nor will any excuses be allowed. We will meet Madame Truth for perhaps the first time in our lives in all her naked glory!

One final point...

As I was going through and putting in some subheads and correcting my typos the thought occurred to me: do serious, professional theologians actually visit any of this territory today? Apart from JPII's brief excursion into the territory in a famous series of Catechetical lectures he gave in about 1998 — and in the end I think his "updating was exceedingly minor and largely peripheral" as I look back on it now — do serious theologians re-visit this territory today? Or is it like much theological territory considered to be "Out of Bounds" today and you'd risk your superannuation and peace in retirement to venture into this sort of territory just as surely as if you ventured into the territory of discussing women priests? Do any of you have thoughts on that? Any of our professional theologians got any thoughts?

Why worry about these people called "bishops"? Just what relevance do they have to our lives?

Look at it this way — as the sheep become separated from the flock they will find each other, including a shepherd for themselves.

I can sympathise with your sentiments, Brian, having experienced similar situations (fortunately, not to the extent that you have) but we both have come out better for it and our faith has not suffered — in fact it has become stronger.

As you said — when the time comes Hickey and Pell will not be answering to BXVI for their actions, they will be answering to the same Being that we all will have to give an account of oursleves.

Nick

"There once was a man working for his father as a shepherd, who lived in a big house and dressed in fancy clothes, who had 100 sheep. (99 were white and 1 was black).
The black sheep kept 'bleating' about the other 99 sheep because he thought that they were different to him.
Now the man, who was supposed to be looking after ALL the sheep, was so concerned about keeping the black sheep happy that he didn't notice that the other 99 had wandered away.

And the man was happier about the one black sheep, who he liked more than the others, than about the 99 sheep that were lost.

Now, I tell you the truth.

When the father discovered what his son had done, he was not happy and said:
'Your father wanted you to look after all the flock and didn't want any of them lost. Did you never read the Parable of The Lost Sheep?'.".

...to think what the reception will be when 99, or even 86, out of every hundred have gone "missing"...

"If a man has 100 sheep, but one of the sheep becomes lost, then the man will leave the other 99 sheep on the hill. He will go to look for the lost sheep. Right? And if the man finds the lost sheep, the man is happier about that one sheep than about the 99 sheep that were never lost. I tell you the truth. In the same way, your Father in heaven does not want any of these little children to be lost." ..."Finding the Lost" - Matthew 18:12-14

Dear Barry,

You may not remember it but a long, long time ago you gave me a valuable insight into the thinking of bishops in a conversation we had in the parlour outside your office where you explained to me how you saw your role. You explained to me that you principally saw your role as being a "symbol of unity" and as a healing force across the divisions and factions in the church. I have often referred to that insight in my own writing in the years since.

Today in NCR Richard McBrien has made an incisive observation that I think cuts back also to that significant lesson I learned from yourself. The following is what I've written in response to McBrien's article both on NCR and on our own website. I think you guys (i.e. the bishops of the world) need to do some very, very serious thinking given the crisis Catholicism is now in not just locally but globally. None of you are going to be fronting up to Ottaviani, or JPII or Benedict to answer for what has been allowed to happen to the institution of the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

As you've probably heard on the grapevine, my wife has recently been subjected to similar treatment by Anthony Fisher to what you handed myself. She has been "shown the door". We were well prepared for it this time and it didn't lead either of us to such despair that we nearly took our own lives. In fact quite the opposite. After you, I was subjected to a similar lesson quite some years later by Michael Kelly SJ. A person tends to learn when these lessons keep getting repeated and repeated.

I trust you might learn something from this lesson below which today I return for the favour you gave me in that short lesson you gave me about "unity" and "healing" so long ago in the parlour adjacent to your office…

Gaillot had been removed from his diocese for allegedly having failed to exercise "the ministry of unity." ...Richard McBrien

The single statement above by Richard McBrien is one of the most incisive I've seen in this whole crisis. And I don't just mean the "crisis" connected with Bishop Bill Morris. I mean the "crisis" the Catholic Church has been subjected to going right back to the beginning of the pontificate of John Paul the Grate ... or even back to the takeover of Vatican II by Alfredo Ottaviani that has led to nearly 90% of the baptised slowly absenting themselves from the pews across the face of the educated world. All the bishops who have in any way assisted in this takeover of Catholicism by the unrepresentative remnant are guilty of having failed to exercise "the ministry of unity." When they finally rock up to hand in the report cards of their stewardship I'd bet the Sydney Harbour Bridge that is the principal matter they will all be called to account for. These "little men" who in their continual appeasement of what Benedict himself has labelled "the little people" and "the simple people" have shattered the unity of Catholicism. They are all guilty of failing to exercise the ministry of unity!

Jesus also used terms like "the little children" but who did he mean? This "remnant of the insecure" or did he mean whenever the vast bulk of the flock goes walkabout ... or even a single one of them no matter how "little" or "big" they might be?

"If a man has 100 sheep, but one of the sheep becomes lost, then the man will leave the other 99 sheep on the hill. He will go to look for the lost sheep. Right? And if the man finds the lost sheep, the man is happier about that one sheep than about the 99 sheep that were never lost. I tell you the truth. In the same way, your Father in heaven does not want any of these little children to be lost." ..."Finding the Lost" - Matthew 18:12-14

Blessings and I wish you well in your retirement,

Gaillot had been removed from his diocese for allegedly having failed to exercise "the ministry of unity." ...Richard McBrien

The single statement above by Richard McBrien is one of the most incisive I've seen in this whole crisis. And I don't just mean the "crisis" connected with Bishop Bill Morris. I mean the "crisis" the Catholic Church has been subjected to going right back to the beginning of the pontificate of John Paul the Grate ... or even back to the takeover of Vatican II by Alfredo Ottaviani that has led to nearly 90% of the baptised slowly absenting themselves from the pews across the face of the educated world. All the bishops who have in any way assisted in this takeover of Catholicism by the unrepresentative remnant are guilty of having failed to exercise "the ministry of unity." When they finally rock up to hand in the report cards of their stewardship I'd bet the Sydney Harbour Bridge that is the principal matter they will all be called to account for. These "little men" who in their continual appeasement of what Benedict himself has labelled "the little people" and "the simple people" have shattered the unity of Catholicism. They are all guilty of failing to exercise the ministry of unity!

Jesus also used terms like "the little children" but who did he mean? This "remnant of the insecure" or did he mean whenever the vast bulk of the flock goes walkabout ... or even a single one of them no matter how "little" or "big" they might be?

"If a man has 100 sheep, but one of the sheep becomes lost, then the man will leave the other 99 sheep on the hill. He will go to look for the lost sheep. Right? And if the man finds the lost sheep, the man is happier about that one sheep than about the 99 sheep that were never lost. I tell you the truth. In the same way, your Father in heaven does not want any of these little children to be lost." ..."Finding the Lost" - Matthew 18:12-14

http://ncronline.org/node/24547

A tiny group of ultra-conservative Catholics, with no formal training in theology, Scripture, liturgy, or canon law, can have an influence far greater than their numbers because they have friends in the Vatican

How far back does the Vatican want to go? As far back as the days when 'cleric' meant someone with some education, could read anbd write.

Is it rather the definition of the flock the hierarchy — perhaps just the ones at the top — really wants, a remnant who knows nothing but what they are told.

"Sister Says..."

The simple folk who might be scandalised if they hear something the Vatican has not approved. And condemn those who just think that the question of the ordination of women should just be studied. "Studied" does not mean the same as "approved". I would like to see a genuine study whatever the result.

PatrickW