Forgot that Jeanne didn't mean that a pope would leave Rome in the 20th century but that it would occur after the harming of one pope.

St Malachy's list of popes seems to be coming to an end, but I take heart from the American prophetess Jeanne Dixon who prophesied that within the 20th century a Pope would be physically harmed (happened) and that the Pope would leave Rome. The power of the papacy would remain but the expression of it would change. We can only hope.

Indeed, Nick, that is the prophecy of (Saint) Malachy, and that last pope, according to the same prophecy, will be "Peter the Roman" so I guess any future pope needs to be living in Rome when the See becomes vacant.

Most definately appropriate

Bill & Francis - DON'T GO - it will mean they have won - God forbid that that will happen

I don't think they use good tomatoes, just rejects. Isn't red the colour for Cardinals? Appropriate?

Why waste good tomatoes

Nick, not referring to your comment at all, in fact I agree. I remember Mindszenty. It was was a different era. On these sort of discussion boards things get oversimplified for quick comment and a kind of group hysteria can take off.

In my remark I was referring to the frenzy of comments re Pell above yours, which I thought were becoming a bit breathless -- and frivolous. We can do better than that.

Sorry, I should have made that clear.

You are entitled to your opinion, Nicholas, but in my case the feelings and emotions aroused when comparing this man to the qualities of Mindszenty is as hurtful as the issue of sexual abuse by the clergy.

I have much the same views of 'the cardinal' as most of you have (just ask him) but this discussion has developed into a feeding frenzy.
We can do without this sort of crap.

Why worry, Brian, we can always import our bishops, as has been done with priests, as 457s or under other "special skills" category ?!

Does this mean that he also becomes a runner in the Il Papa stakes - there is one prophesy that there is only one more pope before the end of the world.

How dare anyone compare this man to Mindszenty or Wyszinski - it is obscene !!!!!!!!!!!!

Enda, thanks. I quote: "I think we need to start again, or leave."

Yes, Enda, I can't leave because I have an attachment to the Community here at Kingsgrove. As long as this Community remains uncontaminated by the push to make the Church exclusive and adoring the false god of what they call 'tradition' which means to them 'the way we like it'. Most of us do not know how to start again as a Church. I am part of a Church in that I associate with many who are faithfyl to the Way of Jesus. I met a woman in the Central Coast today who appears intelligent but is one that Brian describes as so set in her opinions about how right the last two popes were/are that she would not even listen to Jesus should he appear let alone me. I cannot be Roman 'catholic' Church while such as she exist.

To start again? I talk to many wonderfully endowed people but, I am obviously not charismatic enough to lead them into forming the Truly and universally and dinky die catholic Church which includes everyone even people like me.

This woman said women should not be on the sanctuary because there were not women at the last supper. And to think I thought her intelligent! Bah! Who does she think prepared the meal? The men would not have done so. That is exactly what is wrong with Roman cc that has it in for women.

Start again? I've spent my life starting to be as Jesus suggests. If I've been successful, only Jesus would know. I'd like a Church as I would like companions to celebrate the oneness Jesus was on about. I'd like to sing and dance in joy with a few that have and live all the blessingd Jesus taught. I certainly do not aspire to being part of exclusiveness and the domination of rules upon rules.

Francis

Thanks, Enda, for another wonderful post, and to you two ladies.

I have been wondering, lately, about how much damage our Catholic education and the Sunday sermons did to our emotional maturing, how they delayed it in a few luckier ones, slowed it greatly in many, stopped in some.

With the top leadership we have had for the last 40+ years, with the cruelties, arrogance and greed for Power they have shown us with their crminal covering-up of the sex assaults of children, and so much else, not to mention the relatively minor matter of sadistic canings and strappings of boys and young men by some, how may we hold up our heads and stay?

The formation of clergy and Religious is faulty. It turns out far too many damaged minds.

Last year in Spain I was talking to a German Benedictine priest who had studied at Oxford. I said I was from Sydney. "You have a rather forceful cardinal there," he commented smiling. I had the impression that not all the Church in Europe think our cardinal is 'a good thing' as 1066 And All That would style it, even if B16 does. I think he will have enemies in any conclave as well as men who think he is just not up to it. I do not think our faith will be tested by cardinals who think he is the best thing since lace up shoes. If there are any they are in the minority. Besides he got off the suspicion of abuse here, and I presume he was totally innocent but they are not going to risk headlines in the western press, "New pope once accused of sexaul abuse".

Dead heat with me, curlie que. If anyone higher up the "ecclesiastical food chain" has read Chrissie Foster's book, doesn't this strengthen our supposition that he may be departing from our shores, being kicked up stairs out of harm's way, as have his American counterparts?

Oh well. If he goes, Rome's loss is Australia's gain, to change slightly what was said when he moved to Sydney.
Then it was "Sydney's loss is Melbourne's gain."

With him out of the road, maybe some of our courageous Bishops might follow the lead of the Austrian and Irish and call synods to actually talk to the people.

Until I see the hierarchy responsible for covering up the abuse walking around St Peter's Square in sackcloth and ashes and chanting Psalm 51, I won't have any faith in leadership.

Isn't there a city in Italy where they have a festival of throwing tomatoes or oranges at each other? This could be combined with the "sackcloth day" and save wasting tomatoes to no purpose.

If this man ever becomes Pope - I'll be out of the pew so fast - the people still there will be eating my dust

Maybe now is as good a time to get out as any, do you think?

The old catechism used claim that the Catholic Church is the true Church because it is ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC and APOSTOLIC.

As Mandy Rice Davies didn’t really say but has been credited all these years with, “They would say that wouldn’t they?”

CATHOLIC it was explained meant ‘All over the world.’ It wasn’t even then all over the world but if a cheeky child noted this it was pointed out that it really meant universal and that Catholicism was not tied to one country or one culture or anything like that. It fitted in everywhere. I didn’t know then but in 1912 in the midst of this kind of claim Hilaire Belloc had said, “The Church is Europe and Europe is the Church.”

He was more right than he intended, the Church was as it mainly still is almost entirely European in its culture, its leadership and its presumptions. And he was almost entirely wrong because as Nietzsche had already pointed out “God is dead” and Nietzsche meant in Europe. Not only that, Christendom, which Belloc was talking about had not existed for a few hundred years by 1912.

APOSTOLIC meant ‘it goes right back to the Apostles.’ Priestly ordination it was claimed went like this, “I was ordained by Archbishop Mannix and he was ordained by Archbishop O’ Someone and he was ordained by etc ... and eventually he was ordained by one of the twelve apostles. In the 19th century Rome declared Anglican ordinations invalid because they were not apostolic. The line had been broken, and/or some ordinations did not intend to do what Catholic ordinations intended to do.

My teacher in Year Three, in 1952 the year of Queen Elizabeth II’s coronation told us that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop Geoffrey Fisher was not an archbishop at all, nor was he a priest and he had no more power to ordain or bless or anoint than we did. I was seven at the time and was amazed that all those silly Anglicans could not see this if I could.

ONE meant that we were all one under the pope. Protestants and Anglicans (no one mentioned the Orthodox where I went to school even though Greeks ran most of the cafes in town) on the other hand were not one. They split and split and split into lots of large or little groups. Brother said they were not churches. And they were not denominations either because denomination meant just different names for parts of THE CHURCH and they were not part of the Church, they were schismatics and/or heretics. Just in passing a dear friend who is Catholic and a foremost philosophical theologian has several god children. One is Anglican (her mother is an Anglican priest and a seriously good theologian) and another is Russian Orthodox. He jokes that he has a schismatic and a heretic as god children but he loves them just the same.

I forget what HOLY meant. I have a catechism here but can't put my hand on it. Someone out there will remind me. Whatever it means, lately it doesn't seem to hold at all. Corruption seems more common than holiness at least among the leadership.

The other day I heard a talk on what makes a good religion. Justice, truth, charity and other words came into the criteria enunciated. The speaker also stressed oneness. He pointed out that the Anglican Church is on the point of breaking apart. He is probably right. After all it goes from a Puritan form of Christianity (Sydney is the classic example) through various forms of evangelical almost Baptist forms right through to being more Catholic than the Catholics especially when it comes to dressing up and swinging thuribles. All bells and smells as one evangelical friend calls his co-religionists. There is an almighty fight going on right across Anglicanism centred on attitudes to gays, women priests, the literal or otherwise interpretation of the Bible etc. The speaker I heard suggested they needed a pope to restore some kind of order and to stop them splitting entirely.

I realised listening to him that I do not care about this. I do not feel any fear even if the Catholic Church breaks up into lots of pieces because I think it already has and I cannot do anything about it. I do not think anyone can do anything about it. Maybe we had a chance around Vatican II. I am not sure. But the time since then has made sure we cannot now get it all back together. The split is as deep among us as it is among Anglicans. We just do not name it as they do. Mostly in Australia anyway we just walk away, sad, happy, or not interested. It was okay mostly when we had it but now it is over.

There are good things going on but now among Christians what you believe, what sacraments mean to you, how you read the Bible if you read the Bible, which leaders you listen to or respect, what kind of Jesus you believe in if you believe in Jesus, what priesthood means to you,what ministry means to you (and they are not the same) are not contained by church boundaries. Denominations exist (sorry Brother, they do) but they are not the ones that are named in the phone book. They are the ones people gather in if they gather at all.They are where each of us finds his or her community.

Now One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic gives me no consolation at all nor does it explain anything that helps me understand.

I think we need to start again, or leave.

Mea culpa. Did not look at the date.
However, the ambitions and the game are the same.
I hope that His Eminence gets a job in Rome, where his skills would be more appropriate and I am sure he would be very happy.

Sue, thanks for pointing that out. I had told Cliffy of the breaking news on the phone and in his haste he did a search to find if there was anything on the net about it. You are correct that is a report from the last time the Cardinal was in the news making a tilt for a senior role at the international level. Andrea Tornielli both broke the original news that that push was on — and he was later the one to break the news that it was unsuccessful. In my haste last night I didn't notice the date of the report but was more enthusiastic about it being possible confirmation of the information I had received. Sorry about the confusion. The speculation passed to me last night should not be confused with the last attempt of the Cardinal for a position at the highest governing levels of the institution. What comes of this, who yet knows? There are starkly differing accounts of how the Cardinal is viewed amongst the small cadre of people in the world who make these sorts of decisions of who is admitted to the "inner circle" of Church governance.

But that article is 2 years old and looks suspiciously like pre- book launch publicity...

Sue

Yes, Angela and Barry, you are right, but 'roomies' can also be a state of mind!!!!!!

Judith, I was just about to make the same post when I came onto the computer to find you beat me to it.

I agree100%. Most priests in the Sydney Archdiocese will be pleased to see him moved on.

Personally I do not think he will return to Australia in the near future, thank God.

BarryS

He knew he could not remain in Australia because he would be called up to give evidence in the Victorian Parliamentry enquiry on Priest sex abuse.

BarryS

Roomies??

When he has his own apartment at DOMU$...

Angela

Hmm, Judith, I was about to write: Wonder if Princes Pell and Law will become 'roomies' - they certainly seem to have much in common and will have a great deal of self-defensive justifications to comfort each other with.

Could this be another "Cardinal Law" case where someone is moved to Rome to avoid facing the law in their own country over handling of abuse cases?

Tom,

I don't think the higher realms of the institution are capable of listening to the people. It seems to me that those who control the institutional agenda today are a coalition of three groupings:

• The Liturgical Group: The Liturgical Group are big into liturgy, costume, style of speaking and ettiquette. They are BIG into what they describe as "ecclesial bling" and "liturgical eye candy". It is almost sexually orgasmic delight they get out of these things if you follow some of their discussions on the internet. They get enormous delight out of a certain "style" of Catholicism and seem to believe that the pathway to paradise is somehow connected with their particular way of viewing the whole worship/liturgical endeavour and their belief about what is acceptable to God in worship. In the secular world one finds the equivalents who get their rocks off as train spotters, plane spotters, or groupies at the opera or the ballet, I suppose you even find some who get their rocks off via the finer points of various sporting codes. Everything has to be "just so" or they chuck hissy fits if anything is not according to their quite particular and narrow tastes and rules. (When dealing with this group always remember the saying: What's the difference between a liturgist and a terrorist? The answer: you can negotiate with a terrorist!)
  
• The Authority Group: The Authority Group have some synergies with the Liturgical Group in their outlook but the big emphasis for them is in their "Faithfulness to the Magisterium". Getting to heaven is about a firm belief that the Magisterium can never be wrong about anything, never have any need to apologise or correct any beliefs that might have been held in the past and this constant "game" of running around proving you know all the rules and laws of the Church and how you would never be caught dead disobeying any of them. It's a toss up which of these two groups holds the most sway in the higher ranks of the institution.
  
• The Ecclesial Politicians: The third group don't believe in anything but are deft at holding a wetted finger in the air to discern which way the ecclesial winds are blowing in any particular season and will say anything that advances their position up the hierarchical ladder. If, per chance, the Church had had another John XXIII type leader instead of JPII and BXVI for the past 34 years these people would be as visible today as they are presently but singing from a completely different song sheet.

Everyone else in the entire institution today, even priests and bishops, has to live in fear and trepidation of the power exercised by the coalition above — or get out for their own sanity or the sake of their consciences.

Pardon this overseas Yank looking in on the religious chess game that Rome is up to. The behind the scenes secrecy will further alienate the People of God as Rome moves to keep the people from having a say in their church.
What a time for the peoples' voice to be heard and perhaps this will come when Rome's new man is "elevated" . I picked up on this word from Brian's comment . After Bishop Morris I have a sense elevation above the people will not sit well. An uneducated Rome has no idea of the position of an educated people. Tom in San Jose, just watching.

In fact either of these possibilities could be really good for accelerating the collapse of the institution. The question is where might he cause the most damage: in having a say in the appointment of bishops around the world or as secretary of State? The prospects could be almost exciting LOL. The reality is that he missed out the last time one of these sort of promotions was widely tipped (and it was Andrea Tornielli who broke that story) and the same sort of impediments would still seem to be in play this time also. What's fascinating in the new story is the level of subtle lobbying that's reputed to have been going on for quite a long time to the other cardinals around the world.

Thanks for that Cliffy. I had not seen that story and my source was entirely different and the speculation is about a position a couple of clicks up from Re's position. I should imagine if any of this comes off there will be wild celebrations in the streets of Australia — from his fans at the prospect of his promotion to such a powerful position and from many others that he is no longer in Australia. It could be very interesting times ahead — although I have to confess that on the big canvas I think it is all totally marginal and doesn't alter one iota my assessment of where Catholicism is heading, within Aus or internationally. The ambitions of the Cardinal though seem of the order of "a wonder to behold"! One feels for Mark Coleridge and his ambitions for some international posting. Australia at the moment does not have any senior prelate at the international level. Cardinal Cassidy was the last but for at least the last half century up until Cassidy's retirement Oceania has usually had at least one representative in the senior governing levels of the institution. Mark Coleridge has been seen by many as more skilled to be representing Australia at that sort of level.

Rumours fly over Cardinal George Pell's job in Rome
BY:LANAI VASEK
The Australian
May 07, 2010 12:00AM
SPECULATION that Australia's Cardinal George Pell is about to be appointed to a senior Vatican post has strengthened in Rome with high-ranking priests now regarding the move as a done deal.
And Cardinal Pell's forthcoming book-launch tour of three states is increasingly thought to be a farewell tour, according to prominent Catholic blogs in Europe and Australia.
Yesterday a leading Italian newspaper, Il Giornale, speculated that just days ago, after Cardinal Pell had met Pope Benedict XVI, he had spent an hour with Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re - the current prefect of the Congregation for Bishops.
The report by journalist Andrea Tornielli - who has accurately predicted several developments during this pontificate - suggested that the meeting was to discuss Cardinal Pell taking over from 76-year-old Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, who has been prefect for 10 years.
It also said Cardinal Pell had been "officially nominated" as Cardinal Battista Re's successor by the Pope.
The report matches rumours that have circulated in Rome for several months and said a formal announcement on Cardinal Pell's appointment would come within the next few weeks.
The Congregation for Bishops oversees the selection of new bishops around the world.
If appointed, Cardinal Pell would take up the position of prefect by the end of August.
Major changes in the Roman Curia often come either just before or after the Pope makes the move to the apostolic palace at Castel Gandolfo for his (northern) summer stay there.
Cardinal Pell's challenges if made prefect could include helping the Pope select new bishops for Ireland following the fallout from child abuse revelations, and recommending a replacement for himself in his current archdiocese of Sydney.
The Cardinal's new book, Test Everything: Hold Fast to What is Good, will be launched next Friday in the crypt of St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney.
The launch will be followed by several stops in Melbourne, his Victorian home town of Ballarat, and Brisbane.

There is a story in circulation that the reason why the Cardinal showed a distinct lack of ambition for the presidency of the ACBC is that there might be loftier ambitions in mind. For those who have a close eye on the international Vatican news they would be aware that the Cardinal Secretary of State, (Tarcisio Bertone) has been under a bit of a cloud because of certain happenings and leaks from within the Curia. Will the Cardinal be returning to Sydney from his sabbatical? The story is that there has been a fairly sophisticated, albeit subtle, lobbying effort directed at the other cardinals of the world for quite some time to sell the qualities of the Sydney Cardinal as another potential Cardinal Stefan Wyszyński or József Mindszenty type figure capable of saving the world (or is it just Catholicism?) from the perils of secularism (See the photo on Wikipedia for the similarities to Wyszyński, or the profile on Mindszenty LINK — Wyszyński [Poland] and Mindszenty [Hungary] were two of the great bulwarks against communism in an earlier phase of recent Catholic history).

If there is any truth in this scenario, and if it was pulled off, this could create an entirely new canvas for the future of Catholicism in the Great South Land of the Holy Spirit.

I don't have any specific statistics, but intend to make enquiries of some of the researchers I'm in touch with, but I suspect the institution is entering a period where there is a huge hole in the age range from which they need to be recruiting the next cohort of episcopal leaders. The so-called JPII priests simply don't have the years of experience under their belts to "fill the gap" (even if some might have hesitations about the paradigm they work out of). The possibility is that this will lead, at least for a period to an increasing mean age for those occupying episcopal positions. I'll try and find further information on this. There is some evidence that bishops in their 70s but pre-retirement are increasingly frustrated and can't wait for their 75th birthday to come quickly enough. I'm told it is even fairly observable in fairly "orthodox" bishops. If this is correct it can't be good for the overall morale of the institution.

I am Pope Francis as the dictator of my home here. I adopt the title Pope because that is the title of the only dictator I really know. So it is that i am Pope Francis. I am the superior power in the spot here and I make the rules. I intend to make sure these rules are not infringed and anyone who even thinks they might be infringed or changed is in error and will be dealt with summarily by me personally or by my henchmen. I want my realm to be run my way as I believe I have divine right over it and its inhabitants.

There is a force that appears to usurp my authority and power as the only and suppreme one capable of bringing glory and acclaim. These ones coming from outside are tainted with relativism and post modern evil thinking. If they think they have intellect I will show them how strongly I defend my realm against the intellectuals and sneaky ones who try to get past my beloved informers and holy ones, the Home Police.

My major rule is that these vermin must not enter my realm and I lay traps for them lest they enter without my approval which I will not give anyway. When my special police, who are renouned for keeping the posterior parts of my heavenly body clean let me know of a movement to make entry and thereby break my rules I exert every effort to spray the Home with vast quantities of reevangelisation and scouring meant to root out infestration.

Whack! Whack! There goes two, one looked like one of my own crew; I have to be tough; Morris, sorry, more has to be done. I have to keep a good eye out for those liberals who might make it easier for my subjects to be contaminated Kill them all. Whack! Whack! Will they ever stop. I will not weaken. My way is set. It's war ... a crusade ...wipe them out.

Oh! Mary. Is it morning already? I've been dreaming about those dreadful cockroaches.

Francis

According the Catholic Hierarchy, Dennis, +McGuckin is just over 68yo so, not that much younger that Greg O'Kelly and Eugene Hurley.

Bishop McGuckin is a good priest and a respected canon lawyer. What is notable about the appointment is his age. I estimate that he would be over 65 years old. It won't be long before he is writing his resignation letter on his 75th birthday, if he makes it.